MTT tourney hand question

DrTyore

More thoughts

- This isn't a bad beat post (obviously). I think I play the hand the same 99/100 times and overall I make money

- no reads on table

- I was already int eh money, something like the third level in

- I am usually willing to take the "gamble" against flush / straight draws since I"m 66% ahead

- I think my pre-flop raise was about where I wanted it actually... though I would appreciate feedback on this specific area.

- I don't think many people get away from this on that flop

Mark

fdart17

m_dolens;126742 wrotei fold on the flop here. way too many callers out there. you have to assume that someone's got KK or AA i think. if not then you're at a table with a bunch of donks and you'll make your money back soon anyway. learn to fold your overpair and live to fight another day.

Folding an overpair is one of the things in poker that require the most discipline imo. It's not easy, but it has to be done!

DrTyore

m_dolens;126742 wrotei fold on the flop here. way too many callers out there. you have to assume that someone's got KK or AA i think. if not then you're at a table with a bunch of donks and you'll make your money back soon anyway. learn to fold your overpair and live to fight another day.

I can fold overpairs

but not when I"m getting about a bajillion:1 on my money, and nobody has shown much strength behind me. I'm curious, what play precisely makes you assume AA / KK is out there (except maybe from the All in guy)?

Mark

fdart17

DrTyore;126744 wroteMore thoughts

- This isn't a bad beat post (obviously). I think I play the hand the same 99/100 times and overall I make money

- no reads on table

- I was already int eh money, something like the third level in

- I am usually willing to take the "gamble" against flush / straight draws since I"m 66% ahead

- I think my pre-flop raise was about where I wanted it actually... though I would appreciate feedback on this specific area.

- I don't think many people get away from this on that flop

Mark

I would have raised a little more preflop, at this point you really need to know if your beat or not, and if everyone folds, it was worth not getting into huge trouble. Maybe bet 11,000 or something.

Your right, most people don't get away, but they should (because its hard).

fdart17

DrTyore;126746 wroteI can fold overpairs

but not when I"m getting about a bajillion:1 on my money, and nobody has shown much strength behind me. I'm curious, what play precisely makes you assume AA / KK is out there (except maybe from the All in guy)?

Mark

Just so you know, not trying to be mean or anything, just want to help :)

I think one has KK/AA because there are alot of ppl in the hand, so its more likely, the guy that went all in you cant stop that because he was behind you anyways, so no worries about that.
The fact that the guy called behind you it just seemed like something someone would do in a multiway pot with KK. Plus I'm sure at this point he didn't want to get all his chips/raise too much incase of a reshove all in and someone catching an ace in the community.
He knows he has the best hand, but he dosent want to go all in yet even with the best odds due to the number of players in the hand.

BigChrisEl

DrTyore;126744 wroteMore thoughts

- I was already int eh money, something like the third level in

- I am usually willing to take the "gamble" against flush / straight draws since I"m 66% ahead

- I think my pre-flop raise was about where I wanted it actually... though I would appreciate feedback on this specific area.

Mark

I totally go broke here then. I would think that that player is more likely to have a flush draw then Kings or Aces.

Near the bubble I might not gamble it, but once in the money (unless you are super close to a major jump in payouts) I push it.

I may have even pushed after the flop to try and take it down right there. (Who cares about the short stack that is all-in, the side pot is worth it on its own.)

westside8

BBC Z;126719 wroteEveryone who's trying to cover all thier bases by saying: Well you coulda folded, or you could call , or you could raise, or you could push all-in..

Then they highlight the text:

"Oh look at that, I'm right. I'm g00d."

But I didn't say he should fold. I said a smaller might have..but did I said he should fold? No.

westside8

fdart17;126750 wroteThe fact that the guy called behind you it just seemed like something someone would do in a multiway pot with KK. Plus I'm sure at this point he didn't want to get all his chips/raise too much incase of a reshove all in and someone catching an ace in the community.
He knows he has the best hand, but he dosent want to go all in yet even with the best odds due to the number of players in the hand.

Really? I would think someone with KK behind DrTyore in this spot will want to stick in a raise to isolate, and also to get rid of hands like Ax in that spot.

BigChrisEl

westside8;126753 wroteReally? I would think someone with KK behind DrTyore in this spot will want to stick in a raise to isolate, and also to get rid of hands like Ax in that spot.

I agree, which is part of the reason why I would most likely go broke after the flop.

Flint Bones

Wow....a lot of people fold (or say they do).

I lose my chips here. For those that said there are too many callers....to a smallish pre-flop raise??

That's why I hate posting the hand history for these "strategy" discussions. Too many people with the perfect play once they know the outcome of the hand.

I think you played it alright. You lost and you're okay with it.

P.S. It's not like you had JJ and was called by J5 and 67.

westside8

Flint Bones;126759 wroteWow....a lot of people fold (or say they do).

I lose my chips here. For those that said there are too many callers....to a smallish pre-flop raise??

That's why I hate posting the hand history for these "strategy" discussions. Too many people with the perfect play once they know the outcome of the hand.

Thats why you shouldn't included the results at all...really...do results really matter in a hand discussion?

g2

DrTyore;126746 wroteI'm curious, what play precisely makes you assume AA / KK is out there (except maybe from the All in guy)?

Highlighting the white text is the only part that indicates KK/AA.

With 2 limpers in the pot I would have raised to 7600 preflop. If KK flat calls like he did I still go broke on the flop.

I don't like your bet on the flop. If you're calling a push, why not just push yourself? AK/AQ/AJ might not believe you've got the goods ;)

Sucks that you got busted by a Leafs fan... Go Sens Go!!!!!!!

/g2

moose

Two limpers, a raise, 2 flat calls and a shove behind me. I have single pair here and I am pretty wary. The side pot is 4.5k. Not worth betting into. The board is safe and I'm OOP. No need to go broke on this flop. If I am behind the shove, 20k to win 4.5k is ridonkulous. Easy check, even 10k lets me know where I stand here. I can watch my opponents and decide after.

btw I watched Mark play this hand and I hated his insta-call of the shove. I didn't even get a chance to make any comments. I don't care if you decide to shove but you have a minute to think about it at least. Use your brain, not your hand - even though that gets the most practice. ;)

westside8

moose;126773 wroteTwo limpers, a raise, 2 flat calls and a shove behind me. I have single pair here and I am pretty wary. The side pot is 4.5k. Not worth betting into. The board is safe and I'm OOP. No need to go broke on this flop. If I am behind the shove, 20k to win 4.5k is ridonkulous. Easy check, even 10k lets me know where I stand here. I can watch my opponents and decide after.

Unless you plan to fold to a single bet, why risk the chance of giving free cards for flush/straight/combo draws to get there?

fdart17

westside8;126753 wroteReally? I would think someone with KK behind DrTyore in this spot will want to stick in a raise to isolate, and also to get rid of hands like Ax in that spot.

Not me, because most people will asume that someone might have AJ or something like that (not saying AJ cuz there was one, thats what i would just guess at) and unless all in i dont think it would push AJ off (depending on how the AJ is playing, but with no reads.. you can assume he would see a flop).
and if he goes all in, he dosen't know if pocket aces if behind him (he assumes there isin't but maybe he wants to be safe).

But that's true, there really is no "right" way of looking at it, everyone has there own perspective. I think yours is better in most cases to be honest, I just like to always look at the possibilities of a higher PP when I have JJ,QQ or (but rarely) KK.

dalini

The idea of a preflop raise is to narrow the field. In spite of your raise there was 4 of you to the pot. This should have been alarm bells right there. Pocket Kings was a donk for not reraising the preflop. After the flop you missed it. Donks play all kinds of cards and a str8 could have been made with a 6 3 or 6 8 or they could have been on a st8 draw or flush draw. This was a tricky flop. You decided to come out betting where I think you should have checked. I forget your position but that would certainly be a factor in getting information as to why you were called. In the end you were sucked out on. You were turned and rivered. This person was committing suicide with his chips and lucked out on you. There is nothing you could have don but not try to bluff the flop. You made a bad bluff and paid the price.

ScoobyD

The side pot is 4.5k. Not worth betting into.

Ya but the 25K in the main pot is worth protecting. I wouldn't fear AA/KK given the preflop action, but str draws, sets, overcards are all reasonable. I go broke like everyone else here. IMO too many people are calling their action in hindsight based off results. If you're truly thinking check-fold on this flop, then why bother raising preflop in the first place? You might as well play weak-tight poker and limp all pairs for set value, and limp AK and fold whenever you don't flop top 2 or broadway. Obviously pushing AA, KK preflop because you want everyone to fold preflop so they don't suck out on you.

DrTyore

Wow dalini...

Your posts continue to exemplify your understanding of the game.... re-read the hand history there.

Mark

westside8

DrTyore;126827 wroteWow dalini...

Your posts continue to exemplify your understanding of the game.... re-read the hand history there.

Mark

Not even worth the time to respond to that post...

dalini

DrTyore;126827 wroteWow dalini...

Your posts continue to exemplify your understanding of the game.... re-read the hand history there.

Mark

You missed the flop and you couldn't accept someone had you beat so you went out betting and were sucked out on. Aside from being sucked out on this flop should maybe have slowed your betting for the fact someone could have flopped a st8 or at best was on a st8 or flush draw. Depending on your chip stack you should have just pushed all in. Maybe then you would have pushed out your suck out players. For you to think you had the best hand after a flop shows your level of poker. What is a pair? Great preflop but once the cards are dealt in a multiway pot there is no way a pair will cut it.

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