The Prophet 22
Here is the email address to the Toronto Sun. For those who are interested in starting an email campaigning. All opinions are needed to have this issue looked at in a serious manor.
editor@tor.sunpub.com
Prophet :2h :2s
folded
With all due respect, the matter is simple. It is illegal and trying to start an email campaign against a law that will never be changed is a waste of time.
They knew it was illegal and didn't care. If people didn't see this coming they need to remove the 45 cataracts they have in their eyes.
Just my 2 cents.
AcidJoe
The matter is simple raking a poker game is illegal unless you are a licensed casino. If there was a problem in how it was reported then I would consider it. If there is going to be a campaign, the provincial election is coming and I suggest starting with the leaders of the parties running. Then something may be done. After all it's those clowns who tell the cops what to enforce and how.
The Prophet 22
Folded, definitely appreciate the comments. And yes, people are naive if they didn’t see this happening.
This generation has a chance to make a difference the way our government thinks.
In the early 1900s’ up until the late 40’s alcohol was illegal to serve in public establishments. The people put political pressure on the politicians of the time and eventually the law was abolish.
Steven Truscott was to be hanged in this country as a 14 year old boy for the rape and murder of 12 year old Lynn Harper, the year 1959. Today capital punishment is against the law, again the people put pressure on politicians and the law was change before Canada eliminated the death penalty in 1976
Henry Morgentaler In 1969 he gave up his family practice and began openly performing illegal abortions. Soon after in 1970 he was arrested in Quebec for performing one. This was three years before the Supreme Court of the United States legalized abortion in the Roe v. Wade case.
Morgentaler was charged again in 1983 in Ontario for procuring illegal miscarriages. He was acquitted by a jury, but the verdict was reversed by the Ontario Court of Appeal. The case was then sent to the Supreme Court of Canada. He was acquitted once again, and the Canadian Supreme Court declared the law he was convicted under to be unconstitutional in the case of Morgentaler et al. v. Her Majesty The Queen 1988 (1 S.C.R. 30).
This ruling essentially ended all statutory restrictions on abortion in Canada.
What about drugs? A recent decision in R. v. Long on July 13, 2007 in Ontario's Provincial court has struck down the cannabis possession laws in Ontario, and for the time being possession laws in the province cannot be enforced, essentially making it legal. Appeals have yet to be made. Does anyone not believe that we will one day be like Denmark where we have little cafes where you are allowed to purchase personal use of this drug?
Nice comments Joe
The people make the laws.
Prophet :2h :2s
PS Did you know craps use to be illegal in this country until just a few years ago because of some early laws
Whitehorse.
Exactly. Those who want to live by some previous generations idiotic and out dated morals, and just repeat "gambling is wrong"..Can Fuck the hell off!
BBC Z
It is illegal and trying to start an email campaign against a law that will never be changed is a waste of time.
lol, you wouldn't have made it very far as a revolutionary back in the day..
Laws change all the time based on the voice of the people.
Zithal
Change is something that never comes quickly. Hopefully, the patrons of these places will stand up for the people that provided for their entertainment and start letter writing campaigns/calls to MP's/general awareness etc.
On an aside, I think Prophet could have tried a little harder to bias his questions... my suggestion would be...
Q: Would you consider writing a letter to the editor?
a) HELL YES!!! It's my duty as a proud Canadian to stand up for the rights of everyone and express how I feel. God bless freedom and democracy!!!
b) No. I'm too much of a pussy to stand up for myself, plus I like having sex with small barnyard animals.
Interactive Poker
I behind this all the way, if we don't stand up for what we say about poker of chance!. We all know that poker is not just a game of chance but a game with skill go with it. at one time Bingo was illegal, now look at them now. Bingo has no skill, only chance! why is that legal?
lets work together!!!
beanie42
I've already written my MPP multiple times, and I don't think it will make any difference. The responses I got showed absolutely no understanding of the issue, let alone a desire to do anything about it. We have to make our voices heard, but it will be a long time before anything will happen. Poker simply isn't a mainstream hot-button issue or a major campaign-funding group, and you have to be one of those two groups (big votes or big money).
Flint Bones
It is not truly the needs of the people that change most laws it is the need of the country to appease larger corporations or religious groups(in issues such as these). Prohibition of Alchohol (actually the last case was abolished in 1933 in the U.S. except in some extreme cases where city bi-laws disallowed booze) wasn't just an issue for the people but was enacted due to pressure from many Christian groups. Letter writing campaigns were not the reason these laws were abolished but sucessful lobbying by organized groups of people and a large consensus asking for it to be done.
The benefit that the people wishing for it to be repealed was that for many years it was not against the law to sell alchohol and it was a very recent law.
As this relates to poker, it is a long uphill battle that will not be sucessful with a grassroots letter writing campaign or badgering MPPs and MPs. Writing letters to the editor would probably backfire as they would pick the worst letters with the most moronic ideas and make poker players either look like degenerates or criminals.
So how do we get the laws changed? Unless a group hires a lobbyist(and a good one at that) and either find or elect like-minded politicians it will be an unwinable battle. This is not negative thinking but more realistic.
One other way is the attitude taken when clubs are busted and people are arrested. I have seen a lot of negative comments against the police who do the busting. We cannot blame them. They are doing their job as directed by the laws of this country at the behest of our government. The odds are a lot of them are against the law as it stands as were the police back during the Prohibition of alchohol. If you get busted taken your lumps and fight it in court. You'll probably lose but fight the law not the people like you and are who are just basically employees of the law.
I am waiting for Poker Stars and similar sites to start working together and spending some of their billions change the laws. Of course if they did they would end up losing money when poker becomes regulated and they start paying the US/Canadian government their cut.
Casinos won't use their influence and money to legalize it. Instead of letter writing campaigns this movement would need people of influence to raise awareness. Pros are not what I mean. People like CEOs and funders of political campaigns. Find them and the movement has legs.
DrTyore
This came up at the WPC game tonight, and I think there's one thing we're all fogetting.
Poker is not illegal
You can play poker at any time you want. For a good range of stakes as well.
Prophet and I discussed this. Poker, as it stands now, is almost effectively no different than alcohol. The government tells you who can provide the service (alcohol / poker), and where you can consume it (bars / LLBO areas vs casinos). Further, the argument came up that you can drink at home - well, you can play poker at home.. but if you try to profit off either, it's illegal.
The other arguments (abortion / capitol punishment) get into an entirely new ethical realm.... we're no longer discussing vices or "bad habits", but rather life and death (yes, I am aware that alcohol can be related to numerous deaths / year - as can gambling, but it's not QUITE as direct).
As for the drug debate, using Marijuana in particular, this is another situtation not unlike alcohol / poker - the government currently has a system in place whereby you can attain it - no it's not "perfect", nor is it universally available, but it's a work in progress.
Personally I think it'd be great to have independant poker businesses outside of casinos, not unlike restaurants (pool halls / bowling alleys) that provide alcohol instead of just a bar. However, THIS may be the better approach. A regulated establishment. Arguments against poker dens are usually about alcohol / violence / potential for robbery. Well, so are bars. You tell me that a poker game that spreads let's just say 1/2 NL is going to have more cash on hand than a popular nightclub?
They could limit the buy-ins, regulate the rake, stipulate the number of players at any given time, establish codes of conduct (not unlike "Smart Serve"), and also take precautionary measures (e.g. no alcohol allowed, some form of security requirements, etc.) level the playing field for all clubs, and make a tidy profit themselves.
Mark
Wetbrain
Frankly, I'm more interested in knowing if people will continue to patronize underground establishments. The laws will not change. It has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with money. Because they can not get the tax revenue, Poker and all unregulatd. casino activity will be illegal.
I was thinking long and hard about going into these establishments. I used to frequent the "Nutz" regularly. Now you have to worry about the police confiscating chips (your money) not to mention the other end of things -crime - and getting ripped off. You have to worry if this is a fair game. Who really knows.
STR82ACE
Underground clubs would soon learn that not offering a fair and safe environment to their clientel would be quickly out of business, so saying something like it being safe and fair is NOT the issue.
Poker is legal. Raking is not. And my opinion is that so long as the government's run the casino's in this country, they will never EVER change the laws. Even if they thought they could generate more tax revenue by doing so, the casino management/owners would lobby to ensure it is kept the way it is. After all, it restricts their competition, and sends the gamblers to their establishments.
I can almost guarantee you at this moment, the lobbying group representing the casinos are STRONGLY encouraging governments and law enforcements to step up underground club raids.
Kristy
Mark, I like your response and completely agree with your suggestion that regulation is the logical next step:
However I wonder if your paralleling our situation as intelligent players of a skill game, to pot smokers, alcoholics et al is wise? There may be comparable dynamics in the process and path to legalization, but that is probably the case where any change of law is req'd- and you are certainly not bolstering the image of the game.
I'd rather liken it to professional chess and act with the same outrage and contempt one would feel if the gov't decided to impound our countries rooks.
Think of it like that, and then remember that you can buy a beer just down the street but must drive to Brantford/Niagara to profitably engage the live skillset you've spent time and effort developing.
The current situation is unreasonable. As I said in the other thread, we're enthusiasts, NOT degenerates. Once that point is made the government must allow us to provide better access to game of skill and certainly should even further to -ENCOURAGE a game that develops understanding at least of so many basic skills: math, human motivation, self awareness.
My position is probably more easily argued(pro) and subscribed to.
Bumbaclat
Interactive Poker;124668 wroteI behind this all the way, if we don't stand up for what we say about poker of chance!. We all know that poker is not just a game of chance but a game with skill go with it. at one time Bingo was illegal, now look at them now. Bingo has no skill, only chance! why is that legal?
poker is legal, both in casinos and non-raked home game. I played a legal game as recently as last night at a friends house. (and won :D)
MickeyHoldem
The Prophet 22;124644 wroteFolded, definitely appreciate the comments. And yes, people are naive if they didn’t see this happening.
This generation has a chance to make a difference the way our government thinks.
In the early 1900s’ up until the late 40’s alcohol was illegal to serve in public establishments. The people put political pressure on the politicians of the time and eventually the law was abolish.
Steven Truscott was to be hanged in this country as a 14 year old boy for the rape and murder of 12 year old Lynn Harper, the year 1959. Today capital punishment is against the law, again the people put pressure on politicians and the law was change before Canada eliminated the death penalty in 1976
Henry Morgentaler In 1969 he gave up his family practice and began openly performing illegal abortions. Soon after in 1970 he was arrested in Quebec for performing one. This was three years before the Supreme Court of the United States legalized abortion in the Roe v. Wade case.
Morgentaler was charged again in 1983 in Ontario for procuring illegal miscarriages. He was acquitted by a jury, but the verdict was reversed by the Ontario Court of Appeal. The case was then sent to the Supreme Court of Canada. He was acquitted once again, and the Canadian Supreme Court declared the law he was convicted under to be unconstitutional in the case of Morgentaler et al. v. Her Majesty The Queen 1988 (1 S.C.R. 30).
This ruling essentially ended all statutory restrictions on abortion in Canada.
What about drugs? A recent decision in R. v. Long on July 13, 2007 in Ontario's Provincial court has struck down the cannabis possession laws in Ontario, and for the time being possession laws in the province cannot be enforced, essentially making it legal. Appeals have yet to be made. Does anyone not believe that we will one day be like Denmark where we have little cafes where you are allowed to purchase personal use of this drug?
Nice comments Joe
The people make the laws.
Prophet :2h :2s
PS Did you know craps use to be illegal in this country until just a few years ago because of some early laws
You left out the most important case of all... Gwen Jacobs :D
Kristy
MickeyHoldem;124741 wroteYou left out the most important case of all... Gwen Jacobs :D
*sighs*
;)
DrTyore
Go Guelph!
Mark
Wetbrain
I think that operators of raked, underground poker clubs should be so happy that what they are doing is illegal.
If it wasn't illegal, there would be no money in doing it. If poker clubs could open anywhere, the government would take a big cut with taxes and licensing. The competition would also be fierce. -- which of course would force clubs to lower the rake more and more to be competitive.
I know full well how much money many underground clubs rake in on the average evening. I'd be happy to pay the occassional fine to make that kind of money. A cost of doing business.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
esool
Wetbrain;124844 wrote
I know full well how much money many underground clubs rake in on the average evening. I'd be happy to pay the occassional fine to make that kind of money. A cost of doing business.
When will your club be opening up?