The Unit receives a passing grade

JimmyHo

some clubs have a $5 max on $1/$2 and some have $10; I prefer the club with the lower rake; some players may not care about rake, but for me it can make a difference. I guess it depends on your bankroll. Thanks for the clarification.

HP_John

I'm not a troll, & Josh makes some valid pts but:

Rake can be the difference between winning & losing for the majority of players, about only 10% win long-term (there's a high % who break even who would win if the rake weren't so big). Max rake @ Rama is $5 on 2/5 NL w/ $500 max buy-in. Max rake @ some clubs is $20 I've heard. That's a big difference.

I live DT, it takes 90 mins going slow (100 km/h on hwy). Most casinos allow calling-ahead, you wait 30 mins or less except holidays. There are buses in all of Ont that are as cheap as $2 (casinos reimburses the bus co).

There are lots of fish at the casinos, there are also some sharks. You can improve & learn at the casinos. Some casino regulars cash big @ pro events. You can double up or lose 2 buy-ins at any poker game.

Most dealers say most clubs don't pay them, they work off tips. Most clubs are very cheap on food, usually serving cheap pizza people say. I wouldn't complain about cheap pizza, I'm just saying it's not some huge cost. Equipment is a 1-time cost, most clubs don't replace tables, chairs, & chips for yrs. Only cards are replaced regularly, & it's a relatively small cost.

SkullzNBones

HP_John;121297 wroteI'm not a troll, & Josh makes some valid pts but:

Rake can be the difference between winning & losing for the majority of players, about only 10% win long-term (there's a high % who break even who would win if the rake weren't so big). Max rake @ Rama is $5 on 2/5 NL w/ $500 max buy-in. Max rake @ some clubs is $20 I've heard. That's a big difference.

I live DT, it takes 90 mins going slow (100 km/h on hwy). Most casinos allow calling-ahead, you wait 30 mins or less except holidays. There are buses in all of Ont that are as cheap as $2 (casinos reimburses the bus co).

There are lots of fish at the casinos, there are also some sharks. You can improve & learn at the casinos. Some casino regulars cash big @ pro events. You can double up or lose 2 buy-ins at any poker game.

Most dealers say most clubs don't pay them, they work off tips. Most clubs are very cheap on food, usually serving cheap pizza people say. I wouldn't complain about cheap pizza, I'm just saying it's not some huge cost. Equipment is a 1-time cost, most clubs don't replace tables, chairs, & chips for yrs. Only cards are replaced regularly, & it's a relatively small cost.

Glad you noticed RiverRatJosh is a complete Idiot, probably with an elementary school education. The Unit does not pay its dealers, they make their money off tips. They deal fast, and the hands go very fast.

Equipment??? This guy is a joker, what equipment? The cards and chairs, and poker chips???

The Unit has a deal with a catering company, $100 a night tops.

SkullzNBones

RiverRatJosh;121284 wrotePoker clubs have expenses.....
No one is raking in the dough.....

We do not have huge cash counting machines and a big room where all we do is count money. I am sure Two and Jay will tell you that running a tourney after paying dealers and buying food,, drink, and hiring a hostess runs at a loss to our clubs.

We also have rent. We are running businesses that must pay rent, purchase equipment, deal with depreciation of that equipment, pay for supplies, and keep up a stocked fridge and daily meals.

Players pay approximately 12$ an hour in a raked game, that is NL and slower moving.

You pay more to play POOL at a POOL hall. You pay more to get your HAIR CUT, you pay more to drive your car for an hour. You pay more per hour to use your cell phone.......... I could think of lots of things you would rather pay more for in the same hour......and NONE OF THEM GIVE YOU THE CHANCE TO DOUBLE OR TRIPLE UP. Try making 12$ an hour work at a blackjack table...or a slot machine....WHY ARE PEOPLE SO CONFUSED BY THE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE INDUSTY. WHy don't yop gather 10 friends and play in your basement.....take no rake......advertise it.....have fun.....and find yourself out 300$ when you feed them, and be hospitable. Maybe you all split some food and pich in........OOOOPS Theres RAKE Creeping in. Not to mention the time you spend on the phone tring to set a date and convince 10 friends to come play......OOOOOOOPS, one of your friends busts out early, and you need to find another 10th.....hey in poker some win some lose!! you can expect 3 or 4 guys to be on the short stack pretty early......now you need 15 people for the game to last, cause some go broke.......OOOOps you did not think about the whole picture,a nd how much work it is to organize and make a healthy game run.....now you are spending your time, and effort.......and then one of you players complains about something.......you would rather shoot him than spend the time making him feel better....he is a poinson pill now making your other players uncomfoartable....and your game is fucked......

I dont know about you.....but I will make money for all the time and headaches that running a successfull game entails.

Open your eyes you young, inexperienced and narrow minded fool.
am I wrong, did I stereotype you incorrectly.....are you older than I think......
if so......than shame on you even more.

RiverRatJosh

You fucking fool......poker does require you to risk all your money....when you lose the rake is 100% you idiot. A tourney usually pays out only 10% of the field entered.....which would mean there is a 90% chance you will lose, which means Rake means nothing to you.......and lets say you win......are you going to complain that your 2K first prize should have been 2100$.

First off, huge expenses like Food and drink, are you kidding.
Food, most likely under $100 (How much does Pizza cost? or Sandwiches)
Drinks??? How much does a case of coke or bottled water cost? $10????
The Unit has no hostess, and I believe the waitress makes her money off tips.

I don't believe The Unit pays rent to the Church. Depreciation of poker cards??? lol.
Meals are delivered by a caterer at night ($100 or less per poker night)
So, by yer own math, $12 per person X 10 players.
The Rake may be $120 per hour.
So If the game runs 10 hours, the owners would have made $1200 that day.

$1200 - $100(Food) - $0(dealers+server) -$0(rent) = $1100

$1100 profit(no tax paid to government)
Owners don't make shit do they?

RiverRatJosh

Well i wont agree to your math in a million years,,,but lets say for today I am.....

A business that makes 1100 dollars profit free and clear 2 nights a week is a pretty shitty business. 2200 a week......8800 a month......please subtract the 1800 lets say a month for rent (BTW we pay 3k a month at my club) and that leaves 6600 to split amongst 2 parteners (if you have 2) (we have 5 at mine).......

Listen at my age.....I am not forgoing a good day job to make 2500 or even 2k a month, which seems to be a best case scenario based on your numbers.

I dont know why I am even entertaining this line of questioning any further.....

I think you are still young, and have many years to discover that living in this city alone, and even worse with a family requires you to pull down more than 4K a month to live decently.

iguess what i am trying to say finally....and I mean it.....is simply that you clearly dont understand the inner workings of our industry, and I can tell business in general.

I appologize about the harsh words, as I was hot writting the last post.
but I sincerely hope you figure it all out one day.

for now.......

Gamble Gamble Gamble!!!

JimmyHo

personally I think the high hand jackpots are nothing but another cash grab for club owners. I have played at the River Room several times and they also have a high hand of the night, which is reasonable for the players. What I don't like to see is a high hand of the month where the players have no way of tracking the validity of the amount paid out at the end of the month and whether the person receiving the payout actually had the high hand of the month. Just another way to nickel and dime the players. I think if you asked most players, they would prefer to leave the 'high hand rake' in the pot for the players at their table.

btw, I would think a lot of clubs pay very little rent each month as they hold their tournaments at bars where the club owner is earning a lot of money off drinks and food. I could be wrong on this point. Some clubs also hold tournaments more than two nights a week which would cut down on their expenses as the rent would be a fixed cost for the month.

SkullzNBones

RiverRatJosh;121330 wroteWell i wont agree to your math in a million years,,,but lets say for today I am.....

A business that makes 1100 dollars profit free and clear 2 nights a week is a pretty shitty business. 2200 a week......8800 a month......please subtract the 1800 lets say a month for rent (BTW we pay 3k a month at my club) and that leaves 6600 to split amongst 2 parteners (if you have 2) (we have 5 at mine).......

Listen at my age.....I am not forgoing a good day job to make 2500 or even 2k a month, which seems to be a best case scenario based on your numbers.

I dont know why I am even entertaining this line of questioning any further.....

I think you are still young, and have many years to discover that living in this city alone, and even worse with a family requires you to pull down more than 4K a month to live decently.

iguess what i am trying to say finally....and I mean it.....is simply that you clearly dont understand the inner workings of our industry, and I can tell business in general.

I appologize about the harsh words, as I was hot writting the last post.
but I sincerely hope you figure it all out one day.

for now.......

Gamble Gamble Gamble!!!

Hello Josh, I accept your apology. I am a man who is 30+. I understand that you need a certain amount of money to sustain yourself or a family these days. I want to remind you that the money you make off the club is tax-free and also illegal.

I can understand where you are coming from, when you say you need $4000 a month to live off of. I believe you. I just wanna point out that the money you make is not legitimate, and is part of organized crime.

beanie42

pokerJAH;121336 wrotepersonally I think the high hand jackpots are nothing but another cash grab for club owners. I have played at the River Room several times and they also have a high hand of the night, which is reasonable for the players. What I don't like to see is a high hand of the month where the players have no way of tracking the validity of the amount paid out at the end of the month and whether the person receiving the payout actually had the high hand of the month. Just another way to nickel and dime the players. I think if you asked most players, they would prefer to leave the 'high hand rake' in the pot for the players at their table.

If you really distrust the club that much, I'd be worried about more then them trying to grab an extra buck per pot. While I personally don't like the high hand, I don't think it is that relevant. Clubs make there money off the rake. The high-hand helps to attract some of the bad players since it's a big number they have a chance to win. It also encourages them to play more bad hands in order to hit it. Isn't anything the club does to encourage bad players to play worse ultimately a good thing? For the good players, you simply treat the high-hand as part of the rake (so instead of max $5 or $10, it's max $6 or $11). But if you stand to win more from the bad players (since they're chasing the HH), isn't the increased "rake" worth it? I totally agree with Josh - if you're a good player, the rake is pretty much irrelevant. It's only when you are a more marginal player that the rake really matters that much (at least in NL - it's far more relevant in limit where you are winning pots rather than stacks).

As for Skullz - why is anybody still trying to carry on a dialog with him? Just ignore him and hope tha Wes finally bans him. Replying simply gives him a reason to keep posting. Great response Josh, but obviously wasted considering who it was directed to, so save the effort and let him die a quiet death.

BBC Z

RiverRatJosh

You fucking fool......poker does require you to risk all your money....when you lose the rake is 100% you idiot. A tourney usually pays out only 10% of the field entered.....which would mean there is a 90% chance you will lose, which means Rake means nothing to you.......and lets say you win......are you going to complain that your 2K first prize should have been 2100$.

This is easily the stupidest argument I've ever seen anyone written. If you don't understand that the rake is a HUGE drag on winrate, then you should stop playing immediately.

Play against the best our city has to offer. On this privilege, how can you put a price. Tell me I will sit with the best around, and learn, and I will pay whatever reasonable fucken rake is required.

Why would anyone do that? I want to play against the worst players imaginable. If you play against good players with a huge rake, YOU ALL LOSE.

DUCY?

10% rake is high. Spin it (aka market it) however you want, the players will tell you if it's too high or not by not attending. If the market supports it, congrats. If it doesn't, well g'luck.

If a casino, who has to pay a hell of a lot more fixed costs than some club in nowhere, can survive at 5% I doubt there's any real argument as to why 10% is valid.

JimmyHo

can't see the high hand really attracting players to a club. My point is it doesn't add value and most players would be against it if they had a choice. Enough said.

actyper

beanie42;121343 wroteAs for Skullz - why is anybody still trying to carry on a dialog with him? Just ignore him and hope tha Wes finally bans him. Replying simply gives him a reason to keep posting. Great response Josh, but obviously wasted considering who it was directed to, so save the effort and let him die a quiet death.

Thank you, now everyone please follow.

actyper

BBC Z;121346 wrote 10% rake is high. Spin it (aka market it) however you want, the players will tell you if it's too high or not by not attending. If the market supports it, congrats. If it doesn't, well g'luck.

If a casino, who has to pay a hell of a lot more fixed costs than some club in nowhere, can survive at 5% I doubt there's any real argument as to why 10% is valid.

Casinos have the other games to make its money for them. Poker is there just for marketing purposes.

Is 10% the big issue though, I thought is was the max rake that people were complaining about.

BlondeFish

Strongly agree with both of BBC Z's points. Unless you are a gambling addict who doesn't mind continually donating your money in -EV situations and crapshoots, then rake or cost is one of the important factors to consider in choosing among the numerous games available.

BBC Z;121346 wroteIf you don't understand that the rake is a HUGE drag on winrate, then you should stop playing immediately.

Why would anyone do that? I want to play against the worst players imaginable. If you play against good players with a huge rake, YOU ALL LOSE.

If your objective is to win money, then you want to play against horrible players who will give you many opportunities to take their money instead of playing against great players who make correct decisions. If you are lucky enough to find a place where the worst players go instead of "the best in the city", a high rake does not become irrelevant but it becomes easier to come out ahead DESPITE the high rake.

JimmyHo

pokerJAH;121037 wrote What is the rake on the cash game?

See what I started :) I guess rake is probably a subject that should be discussed as a separate topic on this forum. I didn't mean for it to be isolated to the Unit. It seems to have a life of its own now.

SkullzNBones

pokerJAH;121355 wroteSee what I started :) I guess rake is probably a subject that should be discussed as a separate topic on this forum. I didn't mean for it to be isolated to the Unit. It seems to have a life of its own now.

Casino's make a killing off the rake. If a casino has a $5 max rake, it probably makes $100+ per table per hour; if it is running 10 tables then it is making $1000 an hour. Now I know it can't hold the game for 24/hours a day. But $1000 an hour, I think it could easily crack $10,000 a day especially on weekends.

Play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money. The reason there is still money on the table is because people are always re-buying or new players are bringing in fresh money. Trust me, play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money; unless you re-buy.

SkullzNBones

BlondeFish;121354 wroteStrongly agree with both of BBC Z's points. Unless you are a gambling addict who doesn't mind continually donating your money in -EV situations and crapshoots, then rake or cost is one of the important factors to consider in choosing among the numerous games available.

If your objective is to win money, then you want to play against horrible players who will give you many opportunities to take their money instead of playing against great players who make correct decisions. If you are lucky enough to find a place where the worst players go instead of "the best in the city", a high rake does not become irrelevant but it becomes easier to come out ahead DESPITE the high rake.

I agree with you that playing bad players can compensate for a high rake. Alot of players like to do the "hit and run" scenerio.

BBC Z

Is 10% the big issue though, I thought is was the max rake that people were complaining about.

put a 10% max $10 rake together and you've got an unstoppable cash generating force for the house, and an unstoppable suction sound coming out of everyones wallets.

But yer right, if it was 10% max $5 it'd be less of an issue..

JimmyHo

SkullzNBones;121360 wrote Trust me, play long enough, the rake takes everyone's money; unless you re-buy.

I was thinking about this the other day. If you had ten players sitting at a poker table, each starting with $300 in chips playing $1/$2, with no rebuys, how long would it take before the house had everyone's chips (except the last player standing)? Next time you play in a cash game, watch the number of $5 chips that the dealer drop in the house slot. One other major observation, how often do you see a player catching a dealer raking too much from the pot. It happens all the time but players are oblivious to it or maybe they are afraid to make a scene.

SkullzNBones

BBC Z;121366 wroteput a 10% max $10 rake together and you've got an unstoppable cash generating force for the house, and an unstoppable suction sound coming out of everyones wallets.

But yer right, if it was 10% max $5 it'd be less of an issue..

Thanks for seeing my point about a 10% on $10 max rake.
Its NL for goodness sakes, It is very easy to get the pot to $100 for the house to rake the max of $10. There are lots of big bets and bluffs.
Some people take a little time to call, but its not like they take too long to call. The Unit has good dealers, they can probably deal 20-30 hands an hour even when people sometimes need time to call an "all-in" hand.
I wouldn't be surprised if a dealer could rake $200 an hour.

RiverRatJosh

I appreciate the feedback, as this thread took on a life of it's own.

Thanks to those who agreed with me in part, even though my rant was strong at times. The kind words mean alot....and some of you know me....and it is nice hearing from you.....

my result on thisrake thing is this....10% max 10$ is not excessive. I am in the industry (underground anyway) so I see it smell it and taste it everyday. It haunts me in my dreams...my business is poker, and putting together big games and tourneys. I am not prfessing 10 max 10 is ok becasue I am byass....I am saying it cause that is standard amongst clubs.....have you found a 5% max 5 club or 10 max 5 club.....it is rare, and is probably low scale. If you can get there easily and enjoy the game, than go for it.

I find that our clientell in general and in majority are poker players that will participate once or 2wice a week, and have the income to do so, so I rarely see the consumer conscious player, which is why I think it makes me look sideways when I come across it. We run with people who travel to circuit events, and play monthly main events all over the continent, and are always trying to score enough to pay for thier next trip to the WPT at Foxwoods, or WSOP circuit event.....or the 25-50NL game at Niagara. These guys are in the mix on a larger scale. They seem to be able to afford to chase that stuff down. at our club our tuesdayt 150 and thursday 250 freezeouts cost 400 a week to play. for some a paycheck.

This is why I think I have not been exposed to too many smaller game players lately. when our 5-5nl game starts,....and hour in there is 10K on the table, and it grows...people tend to care less about the 5 extra bucks that drops off the average 200$ pot. well you get the idea. You are right when you say it is what the market will bear.

This whole thread started because an individual tried to affect The UNITS good market by bad mouthing them. Let the market decide.....dont spew shit and keep people from deciding themselves. They will come if it is a good place....and they do.

As for playing against good players......2 schools of thought. You want donkeys to pay you off. I am a student of the game....I want to get better....improve...start to walk and talk amongst poker elite. It is a dream. At our club certain players earn verbal and demostrative respect for their track records. the same guys show up for a year and earn respect at the big US events they play in......it is the next level out there, and that is what I am chasing.

I will not get there by playing with donkeys....you mostly can expect a headache from them. In a NL game, a donkey will clean you out just as easily as you will clean him out. Cards do the talking sometimes.......

NOW TALK LIMIT POKER....and yes maybe I'd like to have a few of you NL internet junkies who showed up on the scene well after LIMIT took a back seat. I will sit with the LIL GANGSTAS at that table.

You would all be surprised to know that LIMIT is where alot of pro's and full time grinders wish to put their cash game money. It is a different game, the Swings arent as heavy, and tha skilled mathmetician, in the long run will start to benefit from favourable math, that wont clean you out like a NL game will when despite your 17 outer on the flop. With a capped loss structure of limit.....in the long run you take your lumps, but realize returns from keeping faith in the percentages. Limit lets you play the percentages religiously without going broke when you miss. The formula is undeniable.

Off on a tangent......my point was I prefer to play with the sharks, so I can begin to swim like one.....I am a student of the game, and dont need the game to pay my car lease. It is a whole different perspective when winning is the only option. And I sense I am talking to a few people here that want to win....not for the sake of winning.....but more for the need for gain....which is also fine I guess. To me it just seems to be the "ONe Trick Pony" approach. There is so much more to the poker world I have seen since being immersed in the bigger stuff WSOP circuits, and travelling events.

Perhaps in my own way I have become byass, beacuase while a good 1-2 NL game is nothing to shake a stick at.......for me it is Spinning wheels.....boring....and the same old same old......I can only wish this hunger on all of you to bring your game to the next level, and see beyond cashing 200 big ones off the donkey in seat 3..... 2 times a week. POKER HAS BECOME SO MUCH MORE IN THE WAY OF SPORT THAN THAT.

« Previous Page Next Page »