Interesting tournament hand
Last night in the NL Woodbridge tournament, I witnessed a hand that was the subject of quite a bit of discussion.
It was early in the tournament, a typical (slightly rock-ish) table, at the 2nd level with the blinds at 50/100. No rebuys, starting stack was 2K, so the average stack was probably around 2200 or so.
UTG (around 1800 or so) limped, as did MP. LP raised to 300, and the BB (around 1300 or so), UTG and MP players all called. 4 to the flop:
2d 3h 5d
BB checked, and with 1250 in the pot, UTG moved in for around 1500. Folded back to the BB, who called all-in with his last 1K.
BB: 5h 5c
UTG: 7d 8d
Diamond on the turn, a brick on the river, and BB was out of the tournament.
The discussion was about who played the hand worse, and I offered up my thoughts along with everyone else. I'm curious about what you guys think... any comments?
Regards,
all_aces
ps: FWIW I finished 14th out of 90 or so. 'Gamblor' was there, and he was the guy who knocked me out with his KK vs my AQ and the blinds in 'oppressive' mode for one and all. I hope he went on to win it--impressive play, from what I saw.
It was early in the tournament, a typical (slightly rock-ish) table, at the 2nd level with the blinds at 50/100. No rebuys, starting stack was 2K, so the average stack was probably around 2200 or so.
UTG (around 1800 or so) limped, as did MP. LP raised to 300, and the BB (around 1300 or so), UTG and MP players all called. 4 to the flop:
2d 3h 5d
BB checked, and with 1250 in the pot, UTG moved in for around 1500. Folded back to the BB, who called all-in with his last 1K.
BB: 5h 5c
UTG: 7d 8d
Diamond on the turn, a brick on the river, and BB was out of the tournament.
The discussion was about who played the hand worse, and I offered up my thoughts along with everyone else. I'm curious about what you guys think... any comments?
Regards,
all_aces
ps: FWIW I finished 14th out of 90 or so. 'Gamblor' was there, and he was the guy who knocked me out with his KK vs my AQ and the blinds in 'oppressive' mode for one and all. I hope he went on to win it--impressive play, from what I saw.
Comments
I would be kind of curious to see what the other 2 players who called the pre-flop raise had.
The BB post flop play was fine (checking the monster hoping someone bets), as was the UTG, its the kind of flop you want to bet on if it is apparent that it might have been missed by every other player. He was unlucky and luck all at the same time.
UTG also made a move that i don't mind (one i might not have been able to make though) ... He figured that he could take down the pot right then and there (assuming again that this flop should or could have missed everyone), and even if he gets a caller, he has a flush draw to bail him out. Now i would have hated UTG play though if he was calling all-in
After the flop, who made a worse mistake? Let's look at it from each player's perspective:
From the perspective of the BB, I'd put the UTG on either a flush draw or over pair. On either of these two, my set is a huge favourite. (He could have 22 or 33 but I'm ok with that! If he had a straight, I'd really be shaking my head since calling a raise out of position with A4 or 46 is just plain wrong - but then so is 87s...) As it is, the set was a 73% favourite against this flush draw. Against any random hand, BB is a 87% favourite. Even against someone with 4d4c (giving an open-ended straight draw AND a flush draw) BB is a 72% favourite. Can you see any reason to not call? Should BB have made a bet at the pot after the flop anyway to prevent UTG from getting a free card?
From the perspective of UTG, all you have seen is a flat call and a check from BB. Pretty hard to get a read on that. But BB is out of position and called a pre-flop raise. I would expect him to have a decent hand, better than 55 I guess. So he bet big into 2 players with a flush draw, weak straight possibility and little possibility for top pair on showdown. As UTG, I'd have to expect I'm betting into at least an overpair. I guess he was hoping to scare everyone out. But he committed waaaay too many of his chips. How many could he have gotten away with to accomplish the same thing? 300? 600? What do you guys think? Then when he saw BB calling or raising, he could have walked away and saved a bundle.
To me, the mistake was made pre-flop. After the flop, UTG put too many chips in trying to scare the others out.
Again some terrible luck for the BB.
I personally would prefer betting out (all-in) with the flopped set against a draw happy board. Going for a check-raise or slowplying it on the flop is risky. There's no guarantee that the pre-flop raiser will bet again on the flop, particularly if he wants to peel off a free card to his Ace (if that's what he in fact has).
However, checking big hands on the flop is not just a way to slowplay. Some use the free card play (in this case, giving the free card) to see in the turn card comes off scary. The disadvantage is that you'll sometimes get drawn out on, but the trade-off is that you generate a much bigger edge if you make your play on the turn when the possible drawing hands have now only one card to come.
It isn't too much of a disaster for the 55 in first position if the flop happens to be checked around, as long as he is willing to get away from the hand if a 4 or diamond falls on the turn.
The UTG has got to check it here. He's got 8-high. I hate moving all-in with only a flush draw, particularly when it's quite plausible that the LP player has an overpair. I'd rather push all-in with no draw at all but an excellent chance of picking up the pot, instead of here, where being able to pick up the pot is a big question mark.
I also don't like making a small bet (or small raise) either since
1. You need a free card.
2. At least one player has already acted.
Why re-open the action to players who have checked? Obviously hindsight is 20/20 in this example, but the "don't bet when you hate a raise" idea applies to some small degree even here.
When it comes back around to the set of fives, the guy's got to think back to the WSOP game tapes and get away from the hand. There's too good a chance he'll be "Zudo-ed".
Seriously though. When it comes back around to the set of fives, it's an easy call. He's getting better than 2 to 1 for his money, is way ahead in most scenarios, and has a 7-out/10-out draw to the full house in the nightmare cases where the opponent has flopped a straight.
ScottyZ
*If you hate the UTG limping in with 87s, I'm not going to disagree with you.
He's not. He's trying to drive any hands that don't like this flop. He is UTG, second to act. An overpair like 1010 could fold here easily to the bet. Plus he has 15 out to any made hand here. I don't think that UTG needs a free cards here and will take down the pot most of the time uncontested.
I don't think I'd fold TT if I was the LP raiser here. More to the point, if I was UTG, I don't like my chances of picking up the pot since it's plausible that the LP player (or possibly anyone left to act behind me) may have an overpair and call.
ScottyZ
LOTS of interesting (and refreshingly varied) takes on this hand. Here's mine.
LIST OF MISTAKES:
1) LP raising only to 300. I don't know what he had, but with two limpers in already (and the blinds, although we don't know what they're going to do), the pot's big enough to justify a raise to 500. Unless he wants action, but I can't see what type of hand he could have that wants small multi-way action for exactly 300 apiece, except for maybe aces, which he didn't have. (I assume he didn't have them, anyways.) Pre-flop, I don't think anyone else (that we know of) made a mistake. BB only has to call 200 more to try and flop a set with (presumably) 4 players in and implied odds to boot... almost a no-brainer. And UTG has suited connectors where he can see the flop (more or less) cheaply, in a multi-way pot. Ideal. A raise to 500 from LP would have shut some of--if not all of--these players out.
2) BB trying to check-raise that particular flop. Quite simply, he doesn't have enough chips to check-raise with into that big a pot. Also, that flop is dangerous. If he checks, and someone even bets 500 or something with a flush draw or an open-ender, he can only raise 500 more, and the initial bettor would be obliged to call. The only hands he wants action from are overpairs, which would probably be the only hands that would call him if he moves in right off the bat. With that in mind--overpairs will call his all-in, strong draws will (should) not--he definitely IMO should have moved in his last 1K immediately. The only hands that should correctly call him will be hands that are drawing VERY slim.
3) UTG's play. My jury is out on this one. He doesn't want to be called, that's for sure. He's betting that the flop missed everyone, and his bet is big enough to chase away hands like AK, and bigger flush draws, as well as straight draws. He's relying pretty much exclusively on fold equity to take down a nice pot, and if he's called he still has a shot at winning. I really don't think UTG played poorly, necessarily, but I'm not sure if it was a good play, either. Like I said, the jury's out.
Plus the only hand that you do not have 15 plus outs against is a higher flush draw and that hand will usually and should fold to the all-in in this situation.
As for the hand, now from my very subjective perspective, I'll say that I don't usually push in with flush draws. When I saw that particular flop, though, and that particular pot size compared with my stack size, it just seemed like the right thing to do. Basically, I was betting that nobody had an overpair, and I was, well, kinda right... :redface:
Like I said, that's not the way I usually play flush draws, but this was an unusual circumstance. Any further comments (besides calling me an ass for posting this hand in the third person) would be appreciated.
Regards,
all_aces
Sneaky Aces, very sneaky. LOL. I have a question, if the BB had gone all in, would you have called with your flush draw?
What would you have done if BB
1. Went all-in?
2. Bet large, but not all-in, say 500? (As you mentioned, you felt he might be pot committed at this point, so the answer might just be the same as in #1.)
3. Made a wiener bet, like 100?
(The next ones are just for fun and insanely improbable, so forget about answering them if you think they're too silly.)
4. Checked in the dark?
5. Moved all-in in the dark?
6. Checked, and then all of the other players folded out of turn and the actions were binding?
An important question in my mind: What was your line of thinking that made you believe that LP either did not have a pocket pair, or would have some chance of not calling you with a pair?
-Simple probability? (Something like when putting someone on one of AA, KK, or AK, the AK is more likely to have been dealt.)
-Was LP a loose raiser that could have a wide variety of hands besides just pairs and big Aces?
-A very straighforward ABC player whose small raise means small hand (small relative to raising hands that is)?
-A super-solid Uber-rock who could lay down a hand like TT in that spot?
-Are you fooling us again, and you actually had the 55?
ScottyZ
Of course when my friend was replaying this hand for me I didnt know it was All Aces that had sucked out on him.
For what its worth here are my thoughts on the hand.
pre flop-
I dont mind UTG limping with 78s...I dont usually do it unless the table is loose and passive...and at this tourny most table are loose and passive in the early stages.
I dont like the raise to 300 by LP. Usually when I see a small raise like that I am thinking he has AA or KK(wants to raise but dosnt want everyone to fold). Obviously the LP didnt have AA or he would have called the flop bet so I really dont like the raise at all.
Nothing wrong with the BB calling here.
On the flop-
BB should bet all in on the flop. The board is too dangerous to risk giving a free card. The BB told me he thought the LP raiser had A big pair and he thought he could chck raise the flop. I then explained to him that if the LP did have a big pair I am sure the bet would be a pot sized bet 1200. since my friend only had 900 chips left he would not be able to check raise any body that bet the pot or close to it he could only call all in.
All Aces, did you have a read on the LP raiser? Did you know that he did not have a pair? If you did then I like the way played this hand. You made a nice semi bluff that would force any over cards to fold, including the LP raiser who must have had AK or AQ. The only thing stopping you from winning this pot on the flop was if the BB checked with a made hand like a straight or a set...which in this case he did...lol But you had outs in case you were called.
I find it very amusing when players complain about losing a pot when they flop nice hand and slow play it hoping to get action on it. I guess they want action on the hand they just dont want to lose.
Fold. I'm not risking my entire tournament on a draw with zero fold equity.
I probably would have called 500 at most, and had a look at the turn. If I don't make the flush, I'm outta there with T1000, which is 10XBB, and a BIG add-on is on it's way.
Close between calling and moving in. One thing that would deter me from moving in in this spot is that someone has already shown interest in this pot and this flop, which increases the chances that I will be called, which I don't want. So, I'd probably just call.
Move in.
Fold.
This would make my decision to move in considerably easier.
My reasoning about the LP player was based mostly on probablity and the size of his preflop raise. Probability: he is more likely to have overcards than a pocket pair. His raise: if he had 66 to 99, he may have just limped. If he had TT to QQ, he may have raised more. With KK or AA, a raise to 300 isn't unheard of. But again, it's probability--there are a lot of hands that aren't KK or AA. Smaller pairs would have limped or raised more, IMO.
I didn't have much of a read on the LP player--he played an average number of hands, didn't show many (possibly any) of them down, and wasn't out of line or super-tight in any obvious way. I was just doing what I often do in poker: I bet that my opponent doesn't have a hand strong enough to call my bet. In this case, I was totally wrong, but again, I had outs in case I was totally wrong, lol.
Lol, that's too bad. Nothing personal obviously... that's poker. Hopefully he can look at the hand objectively and see it from everyone's point of view. FWIW, I thought he seemed like a nice guy, but some players at the table had a few choice words for him, too lol. I think after one dude lost almost his entire stack to a terrible beat, your friend said to him 'maybe that will slow you down' immediately after he gave the guy his chips. Timing... timing...
Cheers,
all_aces
He bets out the remainder of his chips, and maybe he doesn't get a caller, fine but not great. He wants callers, heck he likely would love two callers. Looking at the size of that pot he wants action on this hand, despite the fact that he busted it.
Saying that if his desire was to get action on the hand, if i was him i would have put out a small almost irrelavent sized bet. Something like 200. He likely would have got callers from possibly one or two players or even possibly someone pushing all-in over top sensing weakness.
So if his goal was to get action, i don't think he got as much as he hoped for.
If i was him i want action and i got action. I want this pot to pay me off another 1000 or more chips than is already in it.
With that being said, I agree that when you flop a big hand you want action, so slowplaying is sometimes the best move. However, on a flop with obvious straight and/or flush draws, I never slowplay a set, unless both myself and my opponents have deep enough stacks that I'm able to check-raise big enough to make a draw fold correctly.
Regards,
all_aces
?
Are you talking about the same person here?
If someone else said "Maybe that will slow you down" after you cracked his fives, that would have been sweet.
Mr. Calculator says you can call 500. But, depending about your assumptions on the BB's hand and the opponents to act behind you, Mr. Calculator says you can call 1,000 too, although it's much closer.
Also, Mr. Calculator's computations don't take into account Mr. Variance Monkey. You don't necessarily want the VM hurling a big stack of bananas at you at this point of the tourney. It's not quite Peanut Butter Jelly time.
ScottyZ
The 55 has also chosen to make a play with extremely high variance. This is not necessarily a good thing in tournaments. However, this does not make the play automatically wrong.
My personal preference remains picking up the pot if I had the 55. That's a big f***ing pot. I'd want to just win it without a visit from Mr. Variance Monkey. :cool:
ScottyZ
Three from the money.
ScottyZ