Mistake??
I was playing a Satelite on pokerstars for the WCOOP $500 NL HOldem event
there are 9 seats given away, 16 players left, blinds are 1500 3000 I have 23 000 in chips which puts me 14th. I have less than half of the avg stack and am feeling desperate when the following hand occurs.
I get AK in late pos.
the player in front of me moves all in for 29 000
I call
He has 99
i dont improve and bust out in 16th
Was this a bad call here? I didnt even stop to think. As soon as I saw the AK preflop I had it in my head that all my chips were going in. This hand looked like gold to me I had been waiting for a good hand to get all my money in with and at this point AK looked sooooo good...lol
I know that hindsight is 20/20 but when I look back on it I'm not sure if I should have called for all my chips at this point.
All thoughts on this hand would be appreciated.
there are 9 seats given away, 16 players left, blinds are 1500 3000 I have 23 000 in chips which puts me 14th. I have less than half of the avg stack and am feeling desperate when the following hand occurs.
I get AK in late pos.
the player in front of me moves all in for 29 000
I call
He has 99
i dont improve and bust out in 16th
Was this a bad call here? I didnt even stop to think. As soon as I saw the AK preflop I had it in my head that all my chips were going in. This hand looked like gold to me I had been waiting for a good hand to get all my money in with and at this point AK looked sooooo good...lol
I know that hindsight is 20/20 but when I look back on it I'm not sure if I should have called for all my chips at this point.
All thoughts on this hand would be appreciated.
Comments
you know with someone pushing in you may be facing a pocket pair which means your going to be in a coint toss situation.
you've likely in a satellite like this beaten out a lot of people and you're facing a really flat payout structure. ie. top 9 get paid $500 and bottom 5 get basicly nothing or may $30 or something next to nothing.
i know AK is one of the most premium hands (ie. top 3), but you still need the board to make it for you. i guess i'm just to conservative, since i would (or would like to think i would) throw them away.
the power of AK is getting the A or K on the flop and likely beating any pp or outkicking someone else possibly playing Ax, in this situation you don't get to see the flop to know, since you were going to be pushed all-in.
in this situation for good or bad i would rather even have worse cards but be the agressor in betting. you have to remember even other people with just a moderate stack are not going to want to call you in this situation, since if they lose they are now the one just sitting outside the money in a situation where the payout is high or nothing.
since others are scared you have to figure they have something, and would be crazy to bluff without at least painted cards, but more likely have a PP.
sincerly
chugs
If you are going to fold AK, when do you ever play a hand? Do you find that you blind out of all the tournaments you enter? I mean, I'd love to only push my stack in when I get AA but c'mon..
The power of pushing with AK is that you get to see all 5 cards and catch your A or K on the turn/river when you would have been forced to fold on the flop.
Going all-in in this situation was the correct play and I'd do it every time.
As has been pointed out, if you don't have a big stack you want to be all-in with AK preflop, so you can be sure to see all 5 board cards. If you do have a big stack, it's another matter.
Also, it's nice to be the one who moves in, instead of the one who is calling, but it's not a perfect world.
The blinds were catching up with DH, and fast. Each round, his stack was getting smaller and smaller, and he couldn't coast into the 'money'. AK in this spot was a dream situation. He was begging for a coin flip opportunity to double up, and he got one. The fact that he didn't hit the ace or the king doesn't change the fact that this was, IMHO, a good call.
Again, I appreciate your point of view, and who knows, maybe the big man (Dave S.) will agree with you.
Regards,
all_aces
I have no problem pushing all in with AK pre flop in this spot if I am the first one in the pot. I have doubts about calling all in with AK. I usually do not call for all of my chips with AK unless I have a short stack or have allready invested 1/3 or more of my stack. If this hand had happened to me in a regular tournament(we would be in the money) I would have called for sure hoping to build my stack for a run at the final table. BUt as it happens the reward for 9th is the same as 1st in this Satellite so I wonder if surviving and looking for a spot where I can be the aggressor is more important.
BBC Z wrote
"If you are going to fold AK, when do you ever play a hand? Do you find that you blind out of all the tournaments you enter? I mean, I'd love to only push my stack in when I get AA but c'mon..
The power of pushing with AK is that you get to see all 5 cards and catch your A or K on the turn/river when you would have been forced to fold on the flop.
Going all-in in this situation was the correct play and I'd do it every time."
BBC Z: I must tell you that:
Ak is a hand that I have folded many times pre flop in the right situation.
Here is a recent Eg. At Zithals celebrity poker challenge a few weeks ago we were down to 6 player and we were in the money. I had 10 000 in chips
blinds were 300-600. I pick up AK and raise to 1800, Zithal moves all in for around 10 000 I folded and here is why
6 players left
approx 34 000 in total chips in play
We were the 2 big stacks the other players were all short stacks, I can fold this hand and still have lots of chips to play, I know that Zithal has either AK or a pair in this spot so I dont need to risk all of my chips on what I can only hope is a coin flip( if he has a pair of QQ or smaller) if he has KK or AA I am in big trouble.
I folded and Zithal showed KK.
In situations like this you must be able to lay down AK
but i think the move was right here, given your situation...the other guy was in bad shape too, and in late position, he could go all-in with a worse ace....*at worst* its probably a coin flip, but you gotta play to win...you're too far out of the money, you gotta take this chance here i think
i was in a very similar situation in a party 20+2 the other night, late in the game, blinds/stack ratio getting big, went all in with AK, and got called by an AQ....of course, he sucked out, but thats besides the point
PS: And yes, I have paid terribly for being outplayed past the flop with AK ;p
The factors in my decision are: (1) What range of hands does the all-in bettor have? (2) How close am I to making the money?
As to (1) -- it seems likely to me that he has a LARGE possible range of hands. I will give him credit for any pair, a big ace (A-K to A-T), and K-Q. That seems typical, to me, of the hands that a desperate short stack will move in with (it is probably even broader than that). Against this range of hands, A-K has 54.5% pot equity. It is close, but slightly positive.
As to (2) -- I need some chips. Winning this hand will put me back to being average stack which will PROBABLY be enough to get me into the money.
I am going to take my shot and cross my fingers.
A couple of other comments...
This is the power of A-K in LIMIT hold'em. Not no limit. In no-limit, the power of A-K is in pushing people off the pot OR having lots of outs. How two A-K make money against Q-Q? By jamming pre-flop and then getting lucky. A-K will not make money against A-7 unless the A-7 player is really weak.
Also... I might well think long and hard about this call if a BIG STACK has moved in. In that case, the big stack is clearly saying "I do not want any action" and I probably lay down A-K since I am likely to shrink the range of hands I give my enemy credit for. It is BECAUSE the initial raiser is short stacked that I call. He is looking for a hand. You could have him dominated.
I like the follwing way of evaluating these kinds of decisions in real time, which I sort of picked up from all_aces. Just ask yourself whether or not you mind a coin flip hand in the spot you're in. Obviously, this only works if you have already assessed that a coin flip hand is pretty likely. Whether or not you mind will depend of a lot of things: how deep the stacks are which is related to how much play there is post-flop, how skilled your opponents are relative to you (it's often difficult to be objective about this) :cool:, the prize structure, the size of the stacks relative to each other and to the blinds, etc.
In the tournament situation here, I think a coin flip hand here was not only tolerable, but in fact desirable.
ScottyZ
I like this overall plan of consideration quite a bit, ScottyZ; I think it offers a pretty clear and focussed way of looking at the situation. As I was kind of trying to get at earlier, what, if any, situations arise that offer the opportunity for a slower play (even at the cost of danger or gutwrenching risk)?. That is, one in which a coinflip isn't totally acceptable...picture your medium stack on a final table trying to cash top 3? ...perchance I am screwing with rather odd reasoning that may not warrant the effort...perhaps the flip is the best that one can ask for here??
MMMmmmm.... +EV pie.......... :P'''''0
I sort of prefer the line of thinking that good players like to avoid a coin flip simply because it's a good play, not because they are good players. (Although, being a good player does make preserving your chips for the future more valuable, so the chicken just laid another egg which is currently hatching, etc, etc.)
Of course, good players are going to recognize that there will also be many spots (like in the original thread post) where they do want to take coin flips: when short stacked relative to the blinds, making a strong bet which you think has a some fold equity but will probably turn out to be a coin flip if called, with a hand like AK in a situation where you believe there is a high probability of being a coin flip but with some additional chance that it is way ahead.
That's a nice segue back to AK specifically. I really agree with the Dynamic Duo of Dick & Dave (and the other Dave) (and others) about how you hardly ever mind getting the money in pre-flop with AK. You do want to see all 5 cards with AK. You do not want to give a player with AQ who also misses a chance to pick up the pot from you with a flop bet. You do not want to be calling very often (or even have to be guessing whether or not to call) when you miss a flop.
I certainly don't think getting all the money in pre-flop with AK is automatic in all cases. But when the stacks are not too deep (and in many other kinds of spots) I rarely dislike getting my chips in there pre-flop.
ScottyZ
Rather, look at it this way: "Am I likely to be get a bigger edge later on if I pass up on the edge I have THIS time?"
In the case of the A-K being discussed in the thread is seems unlikely that you will get a better place for your chips if you pass on this one. You might... but you might not.
Okay, that's a good point.
ScottyZ
I guess I have never been a fan of the use of "coin flip." Someone is the favourite. Even slightly.
But, many coins also have the property that one outcome is a slight favorite.
Okay, forget about the term "coin flip" all together. Let's coin a new phrase. (ba dum pish!)
Any suggestions?
I'm going to call it "The daily special includes soup and a salad." [Warning: Insanely obscure reference--- not even Googleable as far as I can tell]
ScottyZ