Runner Runner Flushes

zero

Hey, I'm playing online limit cash games, and it seems that almost everytime the board makes a runner runner flush or straight possible, whoever I'm betting against makes it. I always figure that its not likely they had two suits in the hole or two cards to make a long shot straight. The flush is mostly the problem. I played this hand recently:

PokerStars Game #2046831150: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/07/06 - 20:07:18 (ET)
Table 'Dysona' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: personal ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 2: zero_333 ($7 in chips)
Seat 3: BabyU ($9 in chips)
Seat 4: JimBlues ($8.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Jack Monte ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Little Lick ($45.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Robshev ($42 in chips)
Seat 8: BigMoe77 ($6.25 in chips)
Seat 9: zoe123456 ($15.25 in chips)
Seat 10: Iberico ($17.50 in chips)
BigMoe77: posts small blind $0.25
zoe123456: posts big blind $0.50
personal: posts small blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zero_333 [Ad 7d]
Iberico: folds
personal: folds
zero_333: calls $0.50
BabyU: folds
JimBlues: folds
Jack Monte: calls $0.50
Little Lick: folds
Robshev: folds
BigMoe77: folds
zoe123456: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ah Jd 8c]
zoe123456: checks
zero_333: bets $0.50
Jack Monte: calls $0.50
zoe123456: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [Ah Jd 8c] [2c]
zoe123456: checks
zero_333: bets $1
Jack Monte: folds
zoe123456: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Ah Jd 8c 2c] [Ac]
zoe123456: checks
zero_333: bets $1
zoe123456: raises $1 to $2
zero_333: calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
zoe123456: shows [6c 9c] (a flush, Ace high)
zero_333: mucks hand
zoe123456 collected $9.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $9.50 | Rake $0.25
Board [Ah Jd 8c 2c Ac]
Seat 1: personal folded before Flop
Seat 2: zero_333 mucked [Ad 7d]
Seat 3: BabyU folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: JimBlues folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Jack Monte folded on the Turn
Seat 6: Little Lick folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Robshev (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: BigMoe77 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: zoe123456 (big blind) showed [6c 9c] and won ($9.25) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 10: Iberico folded before Flop (didn't bet)


As you can see, I made trip aces on the river (and that that guy had no business calling any of bets!!), I was very confident I was going to win the hand if zoe didn't have a flush. I thought abot it for a few seconds, thought it was unlikely he had it, then got check raised. My intuition in these games is normally very good, the only hole I find is falling into these check raises. This kind of hand happens to me almost everytime I see running suits come up. Am I wrong in thinking that its not very likely for someone to catch these two cards or am I just getting very unlucky in these situations? I'm thinking that I should always bet these, any ideas?

Gord

Preflop your limp is marginal... I don't play full ring games, but unless you're in better position or there have been limpers to you (or you know many peopel will see the flop (perhaps this was the case and this specific hand no one limped)...) then i think you should fold preflop. The rest of the hand is standard, bet the river, pay off the raise.

Wolffhound

Fold pre-flop in early position and save yourself the money.

A7h in early is a weak hand. Fortunately for you it wasn't raised behind you.
You hit an A, but, you would generally have kicker problems, best thing for your A7 would have been
your flush draw showing up, which it didn't.

If not his runner runner flush, I think you generally lose this hand with your 7 kicker.
I'd suggest tightening up in early position.

BBC Z

Theres nothing wrong with limping your suited aces in EP if you expect 4-5 players to the flop..

Blah blah fold preflop blah blah kicker problems blah blah blah

Is this place every going to stop being so weak-tight?

I think you generally lose this hand with your 7 kicker.

INSANITY!

ScottyZ

I'd play A7s in middle position (or whatever you want to call 3rd UTG) in a passive LLHE game.

Post-flop, I would have played it the same. When you play hands like A7s, you do have to be capable of sometimes folding it when you flop a pair. I don't see anywhere that folding is indicated in this particular hand. You have kept the lead in the hand, and no opponent has shown any strength to suggest that your pair of Aces is no good.

I might have checked the river had my hand not improved, and that even seems a smidge on the timid side. In this hand, a river value bet with your trips is called for, as it will now be pretty easy for your opponent(s) to call you with any pair. The fact that the backdoor flush has gotten there should not prevent you from betting here, although simply calling the river check-raise is the right play I think.

Don't be afraid to bet a farily strong, but non-nut, hand on the river for value in last position in limit poker. Even though re-opening yourself to a possible check-raise is definitely a consideration in NL where you could get check-raised to the moon, you are (most of the time) exposing yourself to losing only one more bet in limit poker.

In the long run, if you get a value bet paid off in this kind of spot twice as often as you get check-raised (and call) with the worst hand, you are making a profitable play. In LLHE, where players' number one error is calling too much, I think you've generally got to go ahead and bet a lot of hands like these for value on the river. As Lucy might put it, "Grit your teeth and bet, Charlie Brown."

ScottyZ

Dave Scharf

What Scotty said.

zero

To everyone who said to fold the A7 suited in early position: I always fold anything lower than A10 suited in early position, in this case, there were two players sitting out behind me so I judged myself to be in an early middle position seat. Therefor, I called.


And thanks for the imput everybody.

Big E

I think you played it pretty well, although I would have checked on the turn and definitely bet the river...but I am weak LOL. All the books tell you to dump A-rag but I find at that .50/1.00 level I'll play my suited aces usually if I can see a cheap flop.

(and that that guy had no business calling any of bets!!)

I disagree, they had enough out IMHO to call you down. It's one of the most frustrating parts of LLHE and it drives me nuts...you got beat by a better hand, forget it and focus on your next hand. (If I could only do that!!!!)

ScottyZ

Big E wrote:

(and that that guy had no business calling any of bets!!)

I disagree, they had enough out IMHO to call you down. It's one of the most frustrating parts of LLHE and it drives me nuts...you got beat by a better hand, forget it and focus on your next hand. (If I could only do that!!!!)

Are you sure you saw the flop correctly? The opponent called a bet on the flop with 9-high and no draw, a clear mistake.

Of course, the opponent has a call on the turn after picking up the flush draw. Even the turn call is pretty close, getting only 4-1 immediate pot odds. This is actually a nice illustration of how brutal the flop call was. The opponent calls on the flop, gets the best card he (or maybe 'zoe' is a she) could hope for, and still has a relatively close call on the turn.

These kinds of flop calls, often the ones that make LLHE players tear their hair out, are actually the bread and butter in terms of where the good players make their money and the bad ones lose it.

ScottyZ

Shook

So you made a questionable play getting involved in the hand.

With that flop and no re-raise I would continue to persue the pot. But the 6-9 ... I don't get it.

I entered a Limit Tourney by mistake and I was OK in chips and I just started getting hammered by marginal hands, my AK getting smoked by hands like 49off. Some guy told me that low-limit is really just a matter of jamming the pot and crossing your fingers.

I tried to use that system and it worked for a while. I just don't like this limit stuff online, there is no pressure on the opponents when you have a decent hand.

Just a thought.

ScoobyD

I just don't like this limit stuff online, there is no pressure on the opponents when you have a decent hand.

I've heard similar arguments made that 2-5 and 5-10 B&M games can't be beaten since there's too many suckouts. I've pretty much given up trying to argue the point with people though, I just laugh and say something like "Ya, those games are tough". Of course my BR knows otherwise...

As far as the "pressure" comment: that's the nature of limit. It's not a NL game. Don't treat it as such. Comparing the 2 is like comparing apples and oranges. I remember hearing/reading that limit is about limiting your # of mistakes, whereas NL more about limiting the SIZE of your mistakes.

stoneskn

my 2cents;

I think zoe sucks. keep playing with him.

Big E

ScottyZ wrote:

Big E wrote:

(and that that guy had no business calling any of bets!!)

I disagree, they had enough out IMHO to call you down. It's one of the most frustrating parts of LLHE and it drives me nuts...you got beat by a better hand, forget it and focus on your next hand. (If I could only do that!!!!)

Are you sure you saw the flop correctly? The opponent called a bet on the flop with 9-high and no draw, a clear mistake.

ScottyZ

whoops, you are correct, not sure what I was looking at, the pre-flop call is very bad, post-flop it's questionable but at that level of game it's going to happen right or wrong.

BigChrisEl

Me personally, if I'm going to play a hand then I  raise. It's pretty rare for me to not raise pre-flop with a hand I want to play. That may have pushed out the 6c 9c from the BB, but chances are he was going to call you all the way until the turn no matter what two cards he had, and once he had 4 clubs he was going the whole way to the river, I'm thinking that even if he missed the flush he may have paid the final bet to keep you honest.

I find that in most LLHE that a lot of players won't even consider a fold until the bets become "too high" on the turn.

CurlingZone

I find that I have trouble in extremely loose games, mainly because I don't change my playing style. Starting to learn my lessons i think. In a loose game, don't even bother bluffing if you think they have even a pair. You have to make hands, whether it be a "confident" Ace high, or the nuts.

Suited connectors, Suited aces are cards i usually throw away now, unless i'm in late position and everyone has limped. They just don't have the implied pot odds that they have in NL. I always thought it was the other way around, since you could draw to flushes and straights most of the time due to post-flop pot odds, but its getting to that point was a problem.

CrazyJoe113

CurlingZone wrote:

I find that I have trouble in extremely loose games, mainly because I don't change my playing style.   Starting to learn my lessons i think.   In a loose game, don't even bother bluffing if you think they have even a pair.     You have to make hands, whether it be a "confident" Ace high, or the nuts.   

Suited connectors, Suited aces are cards i usually throw away now, unless i'm in late position and everyone has limped.    They just don't have the implied pot odds that they have in NL.    I always thought it was the other way around, since you could draw to flushes and straights most of the time due to post-flop pot odds, but its getting to that point was a problem.

I could very much be wrong, but aren't suited connectors and suited aces MORE preferable in a loose game than say JJ or even QQ, if the game is really loose, how often will ONE pair end up winning a showdown, your likely to need a straight or flush to win the showdown and the looser the game, the bigger the implied odds.

BBC Z

Suited connectors, Suited aces are cards i usually throw away now, unless i'm in late position and everyone has limped. They just don't have the implied pot odds that they have in NL. I always thought it was the other way around, since you could draw to flushes and straights most of the time due to post-flop pot odds, but its getting to that point was a problem.

Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. That is, until I realised that I can outplay my opponents on the flop.

When you combine the ability to play postflop with the hot/cold-ness of these hands, NOT playing suited aces and suited connectors is a leak. They are easy hands to fold when they miss, and they are easy hands to get extra bets out of your opposition when they hit.

When you make some raggy pair, you have the upper hand on your opposition because you know the odds/likely hands ranges/playing styles of your opponents and can take advantage of them appropriately.

moose

zero wrote:

Am I wrong in thinking that its not very likely for someone to catch these two cards or am I just getting very unlucky in these situations? I'm thinking that I should always bet these, any ideas?

Add zoe123456 to your friends list...

lmbb50

I feel your pain Zero. All kinds of excellent points in the replies you received and I am thankful that you posted it. I feel that low limit allows a lot of marginal players to "stay in" because in their minds the dollar amount is insignificant and they love the hunt, often with disregard for what is a playable hand. As others have indicated you want Zoe at your table, and keep them on your left (lol). I read your hand analysis as a complete gamble on their part. Thanks for the post, I learned from it.

stoneskn

I've read everybody's posts. You you mustn' forget that when others players make mistakes, you GAIN. WHen they call when they should fold, they are paying too much for their draw - they are making a mistake - you GAIN. WHen they call, THANK THEM. because if they folded, they would'nt be handing their money over to your bankroll.

Zero said: As you can see, I made trip aces on the river (and that that guy had no business calling any of bets!!), I was very confident I was going to win the hand if zoe didn't have a flush. I thought abot it for a few seconds, thought it was unlikely he had it, then got check raised. My intuition in these games is normally very good, the only hole I find is falling into these check raises. This kind of hand happens to me almost everytime I see running suits come up. Am I wrong in thinking that its not very likely for someone to catch these two cards or am I just getting very unlucky in these situations? I'm thinking that I should always bet these, any ideas?

When I get checkraised when a VERY VERY obvious card comes up on the river, if the game is very readable, and there i'm not up against a very loose maniac, I fold right away.

say I'm with QQ on the button, flrop comes 964, turn a J, river a 9, and I bet, and get raised, i'm up against 999. I don't bother to call, beause I really truely know. And with pokertracker, I've noticed that the fishy icons are BY FAR "THE" easiest to read, plus maybe the rocks too. (haven't come across too many however) WHena fish can 3 or 4 bet you, or checkraise you look out. But when an aggressive player doesn't, it can mean anything.