2 SNG hands for comment

UnknownUnknown
in Online Poker
Both from the same $300 SNG (non-turbo).  I placed third, not that it matters.  As is always the case in NL tournaments, everything's important, so I'm including everything.

In the first one, I was berated for betting the flop with one player all-in:

PokerStars Game #1731380037: Tournament #8086620, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2005/05/20 - 01:18:10 (ET)
Table '8086620 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: TheDynasty3 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Basso (2205 in chips)
Seat 3: Maksflaks (2870 in chips)
Seat 4: foshio (1395 in chips)
Seat 5: Tmac1979 (911 in chips)
Seat 6: Mighty Atom (1729 in chips)
Seat 7: all aces (2765 in chips)
Seat 8: J9 of clubs (125 in chips)
J9 of clubs: posts small blind 50
TheDynasty3: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to all aces [5s 5c]
Basso: folds
Maksflaks: folds
foshio: folds
Tmac1979: folds
Mighty Atom: folds
all aces: raises 200 to 300
J9 of clubs: calls 75 and is all-in
TheDynasty3: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Jh 8c Kh]
TheDynasty3: checks
all aces: bets 400
TheDynasty3: folds
*** TURN *** [Jh 8c Kh] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 8c Kh Ac] [9d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
all aces: shows [5s 5c] (a pair of Fives)
TheDynasty3 said, "bad bet aces"
all aces collected 350 from side pot
J9 of clubs: shows [Qc Jc] (a pair of Jacks)
J9 of clubs collected 375 from main pot
all aces said, "i want the side"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 725 Main pot 375. Side pot 350. | Rake 0
Board [Jh 8c Kh Ac 9d]
Seat 1: TheDynasty3 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Basso folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Maksflaks folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: foshio folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Tmac1979 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Mighty Atom folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: all aces (button) showed [5s 5c] and won (350) with a pair of Fives
Seat 8: J9 of clubs (small blind) showed [Qc Jc] and won (375) with a pair of Jacks

In the second one, I'm wondering if it's OK to call in this spot with no pair:

PokerStars Game #1731501469: Tournament #8086620, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2005/05/20 - 01:42:45 (ET)
Table '8086620 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Basso (1243 in chips)
Seat 3: Maksflaks (4140 in chips)
Seat 4: foshio (1432 in chips)
Seat 5: Tmac1979 (4261 in chips)
Seat 7: all aces (2424 in chips)
Tmac1979: posts small blind 100
all aces: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to all aces [Ah Kh]
Basso: folds
Maksflaks: folds
foshio: raises 1232 to 1432 and is all-in
Tmac1979: folds
all aces: calls 1232
*** FLOP *** [5h 6h 3c]
*** TURN *** [5h 6h 3c] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [5h 6h 3c Ad] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
all aces: shows [Ah Kh] (three of a kind, Aces)
foshio: shows [3d 3h] (a full house, Threes full of Aces)
foshio collected 2964 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2964 | Rake 0
Board [5h 6h 3c Ad As]
Seat 2: Basso folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Maksflaks folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: foshio (button) showed [3d 3h] and won (2964) with a full house, Threes full of Aces
Seat 5: Tmac1979 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: all aces (big blind) showed [Ah Kh] and lost with three of a kind, Aces

Losing that hand put me at just under 1K, and almost put me out. Would anyone fold in that spot?

Any comments appreciated.

Comments

  • MainEventMainEvent
    Hey there aces,

    First time poster but been registered for a while but now starting to play more and more, learning the craft of how not to lose my money! :)

    Honestly, I would have called!

    There's the flush draw to the Ace that you have and at least 9 outs, without counting the possibility that he might just have an over paid and that a K or an A would be good as well.

    It's a tough call but in that position, I would take it! One of those if you it, we just move on and if not, bad beat story! :)

    Good day and good luck,
    MainEvent
  • UnknownUnknown
    Hey Main,

    Thanks for the reply, and welcome to the forum!  I assume you are referring to the second hand... however, all the money went in preflop, so there was no flush draw to speak of.  The question about that hand is: do I call off that much of my stack preflop with ace high, that close to the money, considering the relative stack sizes and blinds?
  • MainEventMainEvent
    Thanks for the welcome.

    I see, didn't read that correctly!

    I see you were the 2nd chip lead and a couple of players left before the money

    3-3 vs A-K pre-flop is almost 50-50 shot. With a chip lead, do you want to gamble, I think that boils down too.

    In your position, a difficult laid down. Depending what type of player your going against, either tight or loose, you can maybe make a better call. He may have only Q-A, so K-A would be better. Still, a call I don't think is the wrong thing, just maybe not the odds you want when going all-in for that much

    MainEvent
  • mads777mads777
    1st hand, I like the bet...busting out the all-in player is not 'that' important since even if he doubles-up he won't be that much of a threat...Also, like you mentioned, there's already an intersting side pot to take...plus the possibility that you are ahead of the all-in player...

    the only time I wouldn't consider betting is if I was on the bubble and "kind of" not in good shape if I'd double the all-in player...even there...I can't see that kind of situation...since I would probably be all-in preflop anyway if I was in such a position...

    duno If you know what I mean...sry had a few beers yesterday :D

    2nd hand...well I think I can't fold that...button raising all-in to me BB seeing AKs....more I think of it it's a auto-call...maybe considering a fold if we were two really big stacks compare to the rest and the other big stack moving in on me...even there not sure...Like Main mentionned that player could make that move with any pocket pair, AK-Q-J or x or even any two...ok...most of the time pocket...or A-something...

    so 50%, sligh favorite or big favorite...you call and take his chips!!!

    you always play for 1st right? I think I read that somewhere :fish:
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    1st hand, I like the bet...busting out the all-in player is not 'that' important since even if he doubles-up he won't be that much of a threat...Also, like you mentioned, there's already an intersting side pot to take...plus the possibility that you are ahead of the all-in player...

    Agreed. Assuming the all-in player started the hand with no pair, you're about a 2 to 1 favorite that he's flopped zilch. More importantly, if the active opponent can't call you, then you're glad that he probably folded two overcards to your 55, gutshot straight draws, etc. Many opponents would also release hands like bottom pair, or pocket pairs under J. A reasonably conservative player might not even want to get involved with a pair of Jacks here.

    There are curently 8 players remaining, top 3 spots pay. Eliminating a player at this point in the tournament is about as important as making sure you've plucked your excess nose hairs.

    Finally, as you mentioned in the chat in your own defence, the main pot isn't all that big, and the side pot worth making a minimal-risk play for.

    This is exactly what we were chatting about at Stars a few days ago. Dry (or merely slightly damp) side pot bets are not automatically wrong. It would clearly be wrong to bet some hands here, but 55 is enough hand to bet.


    As for the second hand, this is an easy call I think. Your opponent is simply making a standard1 raise from the button when it's 5-handed, you have AKs to defend your BB with, and no possibility of other players being in this pot. Folding here would be pretty outrageous.

    I see that the dry side pot betting expert has busted out in 6th place or worse... ;)

    ScottyZ

    1Starting the hand with around 7*BB, the standard raise for this particular opponent is all-in.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    If your presto was actually 66 then I would have pushed preflop.

    Hand 1, I don't really like the bet on the flop because he only calls you when you are beat and the side pots only about 200 chips..

    Hand 2, You've got big slick. Isnt this just the classic coin flip? I'd call in a heartbeat everytime. When villian has a pock pair, it's a flip. When villian pushes his AQ you've got domination.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Well maybe it's my playing style but I would have to question the raise on 55 also.  More for the reason of facing 2 overcards that may bite you if called or reraised for the size of the pot it wouldn't be worth it for me 2) I always like to eliminate if I can and I do not think 55 is going to cut it there.  Given that if Dynasty could not call the bet you most likely had him beat and point 2) is a mute point.  
    Hand 2 is a no brainer if you do not have him on AA or KK.  AK is a powerful hand and suited is a bit of a bonus.  If you are willing to take 55 in to battle with 3 overcards I think AK preflop is a safer bet. That's just my opinion as I usually like two high live drawing cards then a low pair for an all in opportunity.      

    Grand result is I would have lost both hands so hence why I play lower limits LOL.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Some people get mad when there is a small all-in and you start a side pot going. "If more hands are played there is more of a chance that one of the hands will beat the all-in hand". I agree in principle with the statement in that you have more of a chance of eliminating someone, but to make that a tournament strategy is not such a clear decision.

    It is like in blackjack when people get mad at you for taking a card on something like 12 when the dealer is showing a 16. They say stuff like, shouldn't have hit there, you sucked out a ten that the dealer would have gotten. You are not playing for yourself, you are playing to bust the dealer. The cards are random and any card can come next, it doesn't really matter what card came out. You can't look at these things in hindsight and say "it would have been better for the table if..." You have to play for yourself and only yourself.
  • apryllshowersapryllshowers
    The first hand is a nobrainer bet. Your preflop bet was intended, I presume, to isolate the shortstack player. When the other blind comes along, the sidepot is now approx the same size as the main pot. When the BB checks, you HAVE to take a stab at the pot, as you have represented a hand. If your bet is successful, you win the sidepot and get the hand heads up against an allin player on a freeroll. Your bet may induce the BB to fold hands like second pair, third pair, or even a hand like 99/77/66. If the BB raises you, it becomes an easy fold. If you win the sidepot and lose the main, who cares? You made some money on the hand.



    The second hand depends on the range of hands you put your opponent on. If he only makes that raise with a AA/KK/AK, then you fold. Otherwise you need to call there. He is in steal position and prob would not have raised allin with AA/KK. Therefore, you either have him dominated (if he has a weaker ace), coin flip (if he has a pair) or you are slight favorite if he has live undercards to your AK. Your play was fine in both hands.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Great responses so far guys... the first hand seems to be the most hotly contested, so I'll leave it for now. The second hand seems to be unanimous: call. Well, I did call, so I thought it was the right play then. And, I think it's the right play now. I'm familiar with the whole 'slight dog/huge favourite' line of thinking, and I didn't put him on AA or KK. I did, however, think he probably had a pocket pair. I had a feeling I'd be flipping a coin.

    Let me rephrase the question about hand #2: let's say you KNEW you'd be flipping a coin (ie: you somehow knew he had 33). Would you call here, or would you fold, and wait to get your chips in when you'd be the one betting instead of calling?
  • UnknownUnknown
    If you knew he had 33s sor sure I would be more at ease with that call as it eliminates the two hands that I fear going into the flop. Mind you if it was a final table of WSOP where each spot will be 400K to 1M more in payout I might fold. What's that I hear greenday in the background singing "walking contradiction"
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    I did, however, think he probably had a pocket pair. I had a feeling I'd be flipping a coin.

    You must have a killer read on this particular opponent or something then. This, I think, is giving a pre-flop steal-position opener far too much credit for a hand.
    Let me rephrase the question about hand #2: let's say you KNEW you'd be flipping a coin (ie: you somehow knew he had 33). Would you call here, or would you fold, and wait to get your chips in when you'd be the one betting instead of calling?

    I'd call.

    The added value of the hole cards of the opponent being a certainty would push me beyond the "conventional wisdom" that you should not call a big all-in bet where you are very likely to be in a race situation, but also very likely to be in a race situation at best.

    ScottyZ
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Let me rephrase the question about hand #2: let's say you KNEW you'd be flipping a coin (ie: you somehow knew he had 33). Would you call here, or would you fold, and wait to get your chips in when you'd be the one betting instead of calling?

    Isnt this almost an ideal situation to flip? Your opponent has 2/3 the stack of you. Winning it puts you in great positiion to win the SnG. Dropping it still gives you chips to play with (800 or so).

    Now, change the situation so that a bigger stack than you has pushed and you'd be putting yourself all-in, then it's a tougher decision. One that I admit I'd still call.
  • UnknownUnknown
    OK OK... call with AhKh.  I guess it really is that cut and dry, at least in this spot...  ;)

    I normally wouldn't think twice about it, but some guy on the rail said he would have folded AK in that spot.  He said this while I was emotionally vulnerable (ie: my stack was crippled) and more open to self-doubt. That'll teach me to listen to random people on the rail.  Thanks for bringing me back to reality!

    I'm going away for the long weekend now, so that should give me lots of time to think up something brilliant to post about the first hand.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    That'll teach me to listen to random people on the rail.

    If someone from the rail berated you for the AKs call, and meant it (that is, rather than just trying to get under your skin for whatever reason), they are out of their mind.

    At the very best it's a close decision, not a beratable (real word?) one. I still think it's a clear call myself. given that I'd expect your opponent to have a range of hands far wider than being restricted to the pocket pairs. I think it's not even unreasonable for your opponent to move in with any two there.

    ScottyZ
  • Flint BonesFlint Bones
    I like the bet on the flop. I think it is really risky, but you want to get as many people out of the pot at this point as possible. The all-in guy isn't moving and since his stack was so low he could have almost anything and may not have hit. The other guy is the question. You put out a bet and he folded, great result. If he called or re-raised, then you are probably beat and now won't bet anything else. I like it, I just don't know if in this situation I would have had the guts to do it. I would need to have a read on the other guy.
  • CurlingZoneCurlingZone
    I don't see anything wrong with the first bet. You're trying to protect your "perceived" strong hand, and use the strength of your previous bet to make it look better.

    I don't understand the comment made by TheDynasty, pretty funny. He probably had a hand that had you beat, and folded it. If you're going to raise with 55 in that position, the raise after the flop is the play.

    AK on the other hand is a tough decision. I may have folded it in this position, but a coin flip (at worst, off the read) that could put you into a very strong position to win is a good play. Its definently not a bad play, like the rail yahoo suggested.

    I like being in good position when calling, or the one putting on the pressure. Now this is tournament play decision-making of course, since in a ring game, you call this one everytime, with the read you got. I may be wrong, but i'm still "learning to win" rather then "place in the money" online.
  • bigbadwoofbigbadwoof
    On the first hand I LOVE the way you played it!!
    1. preflop you put up a modest raise with small pockets, nothing wrong there.
    2. after flop only player still in action with you checks, he's weak or slow playing, cards on board are irrelevant with his check you must put out feeler and your bet was 1/3 of his stack and only 1/5 of yours and just over 1/2 of the pot. Perfect amount, your not crippled if he comes back at you but he needs to have you beat not to fold.
    3. if players are moaning after you win a pot from them you are doing something right.....unless your the guy I end up playing all the time that plays garbage and sucks out win after win, if thats you I join them in moaning, lol.

    On the second hand you call everythine as has been the consensus so far. You only fold a great starter if up agianst a bigger stack and all you want is to grind out a "show" result. You should be "in it to win it".
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    Here's my take:

    Hand 1: Who's so preoccupied with busting a short stack with 8 players left that they call off like 20% of their stack and then whine about it? The player in question knew he was going to have to play a side pot by calling the bet vs. a big stack, he should have thought about that before calling preflop. Big difference between making that bet with 8 left and making that bet with the guy on the bubble allin. Nice bet (although I doubt I'd have had the balls to bet into that board). I can't even figure out what he'd have laid down there KT or AJ maybe? Most likely a suited A that would have hit on the turn is my best guess (which you appropriately protected the sidepot with no less).

    Hand 2: No brainer call. I don't know how you'd put the guy on a PP there unless he was very very tight and never stole. I'd be pushing liberally with a lot of hands there on the button. The railbird is either a rock or a moron that has heard the old "AK is better to push with than call with" mantra. I don't think he really grasps the situation appropriately of a short stacked button push.

    As for the rephrased question of "Would you call there with AKs KNOWING that the person held 33?" If I felt like I was on my A-game and felt I could find a better spot (or felt I could liberally steal off others), I probably fold. Otherwise, I make the call and gamble.
  • ScottyZScottyZ
    Most likely a suited A that would have hit on the turn is my best guess (which you appropriately protected the sidepot with no less).

    Good guess IMO, and great point about protecting the pot.

    It's pretty likely that he would have spiked his Ace, due to the fact that he was crying like an online poker player at the end of the hand.

    (Move over "crying like a baby"... there's a NextGen cliché in town.)

    In the alternate universe where all_aces does not bet the pair of fives, we end up having the following in the chat:

    SumDumBum [observer] said, "bad bet dynasty"
    .
    .
    .
    TheDynasty3 said, "i want the side"

    ScottyZ
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    Once again, I'm the jerk that disagrees with everyone. So "learn me up".

    First hand is a bit iffy. If you think your hand is much stronger than the active opponent's, then go ahead and bet into him. With that board, I'm not so sure. I would have expected it to hit him in one way or another. If he's willing to let you catch up, why not take it. To me, this is a good chance to waste some chips but it was a nice aggressive play and also lets the other players know this will not be an easy ride for them. I do agree that you don't need to be too concerned about putting someone out at this point.

    Second hand, why would you call a coin flip? You are one of the leaders and you have to know you are one of the better players. You don't need coin flips. Is this a pure steal? Would the guy need to bet 7xBB to scare you out? (I'm not sure what the experience at the table was in this case. Also you can make the argument that if he went to 4xBB he'd be pot committed, etc, etc.) I would agree that if he went to 3 or 4xBB, you could push. One of the benefits of AK is the fold equity when you push but you still have a very good chance if you get called. You only got half the value in this situation. Losing this hand leaves you in the trouble zone where you *have* to start playing coin tosses. You may not get another chance to play to your strengths.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    does "bad bet aces" count as a berating? you must be playing at very gentlemanly tables... :D
  • TigerscottTigerscott
    Hand 1 you played perfect..

    Hand 2 AKs 5 handed is huge..
    With no read on the guy I'm not sure I like it..

    My Thoughts..

    AKs all be it is a monster hand 5 handed BUT... it is still a drawing hand..
    I like it better being the aggressor not the one calling..

    13 better starters and AA or KK is death..

    Blinds are tricky to play... I flat call also though..
    Chance to take a guy out and losing isn't death.. Call..

    nothing wrong I see
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