Legal tournament question
I am looking to host a poker tourney for 40 players. Buyin will be $50.00 with all money being paid out to winners. I have a party room in my apartment building that I hope use. My question is does holding the tourney here break any laws? I know that you aren't supposed to have one in a public place but does this party room available for tenants use constitute a private or public place. Any input would be helpful.
the Saint
the Saint
Comments
All money is paid out? No laws are being broke, have fun.
I had a meeting with a lady named jamie from the AGCO last week and the staff SGT. All forms of poker are illegal, charity or not, there is no license's for poker games, unless you are a casino. Even stags are illegal.
The thing is, is that there are somany games out there, they are only worried about the big underground games.
The AGCO figures that within 3 years, you will be able to purchase a gaming license like a liquor license.
Rob
Poker played with numbered pieces of paper pool with numbered balls.
both played on tables
both known for gambling purposes.
Why would it be illegal to have a hall and rent out tables. As long as you are not taking a rake on the table. The government doesn't want this in court anytime soon because with the right legal representation it might be very easy to defend
The thing that most burns me is that they won't just come out and say what is and isn't permissable. In the latest AGCO publication, they tell bars to be careful of hosting poker tournaments and suggest they consult a legal expert, yet they do not say at which point the law is being broken.
It's a good thing that the Criminal Code does then.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/42557.html
Poker is different than either darts or pool, since the latter are games of pure skill. Of the three, poker is the only one which (in my opinion) could be classified as a "game" under the Criminal Code (Sec 197 (1), definition of "game").
ScottyZ
Oh yeah, and have you considered a second career as a lawyer? "It's a good thing the Criminal Code does then". ROFLMAO.Â
At this point, I simply can't. That would be way too Rounders.
Seriously though, the idea has crossed my mind from time to time. But look at how they are portraying lawyers on the top quality TV shows (let's say, for example...ummm...hmmm... 24?) these days. That's not for me.
ScottyZ
According to the criminal code, it is legal for "the saint" to host a game at his party room since there is no fee being charged and the house is not profitting.
But this is where it gets kinky for a solid player hosting a game.
(iv) in which the chances of winning are not equally favourable to all persons who play the game, including the person, if any, who conducts the game;
Ahhh, yes I understand now..
Thank you Obi Wan.
Is that a sweet deal or what!!
LMAO, anyways, just to let you know, I am trying to stay in regular contact with Jamie and Chris from the AGCO, as they are working on making it legal. I am also trying to start a committee that will get involved with the AGCO and the Federal Government to help it along. The people at the AGCO want this to work out, because there is revenue in it for them, the problem is convincing the Fed's that it can be regulated properly. It won't be soon, but it won't be long either.
Somebody else is actually reading the Crimnal Code now? Now we're getting somewhere. :cool:
Not necessarily. One aspect of an operation being legal (i.e. the fact that the poker game does not take a rake/house fee) does not make the entire operation not legal.
For example, the event may violate the building's fire regulations. Or, not having the building manager's permission to hold the event (or misrepresenting the nature of the event to get such permission) may cause legal problems. Or...
Say, I wonder if there is legal precedent for this sort of ruling against a poker player.
http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onca/1995/1995onca10273.html
ScottyZ
Although reading all this stuff is killin my eyes, even the AGCO site. Think I could talk my wife into acting like a secratary, getting HER to read all day and night, and then break it down to laymens terms
I'm just a curious guy who is interested in poker with access to various internet searh engines.
I'd rather not get involved with something like this at this point, but thanks for having me in mind for such a thing. I'm glad to hear that the AGCO (and possibly others) may be working to make the laws more clear in this area.
ScottyZ
How come the Royal Canadian Legion can hold games like Euchre and Crib (for a fee) typically you pay two bucks to get in.....and the top three players win and are paid out 50% of the money. The other 50% is given to the RCL for their entertainment committee....what's the differnce? The fact that we are betting on each hand? Sounds confusing to me...........
I am sure if the cops had absolutely nothing better to do, they would start cracking down on this stuff. But the reality is, they aren't going to throw a bunch of 85 year old war vets into jail over $20 a week, or a group of people just playing some cards for small stakes. If you are running a gambling house, with servers and dealers (as mentioned in the other thread) and taking down big coin every night, you should be worried. If you play games for tens of thousands of dollars, I would watch over my shoulder. I would always inquire about events (see thread on cash games and the rake), but I am not scared about being busted down for participating in a card game.
In my opinion, they can't do this legally. The event you describe would be a common gaming house under Criminal Code, Section 197, "common gaming house" (b) (ii)
However, some organizations may have special exemption (perhaps having a certain kind of licence) that allows them to hold events such as these legally. On the other hand, "for charity" operations are not automatically exempt from gaming laws.
Whether legal or not, in terms of answering the "How come they do it?" question, WaterLooser has already touched on the main points. Despite this operation being (fairly clearly IMO) a common gaming house, this sort of thing typically falls under the radar.
Basically the system of gambling law1 in Canada currently allows plenty of low stakes gaming such as this to go on unregulated. As a result, the people who are least likely to be able to afford gambling are offered the maximum amount of opportunities to do so. Makes sense to me.
ScottyZ
1Not so much the laws themselves, but the actual enforcement of these laws. I can find no mention anywhere in gaming laws that such laws apply to certain size stakes and not others.
I would reiterate the difference between legality and enforcement.
If anyone want to read other poker/gaming house cases, check out:
R. v. Turmel 92 O.A.C. 215, 109 C.C.C. (3d) 162
R. v. Karavasilis 54 C.C.C. (2d) 530
R. v. Ross 4 C.R.N.S. 233, [1968] S.C.R. 786
Bampton v. R [1932] S.C.R. 626, 58 C.C.C. 289, [1932] 4 D.L.R. 209
There are plenty more than that, and I would have to do some serious reading to determine the leading cases, maybe after exams....
how often, how much and who is involved (somewhat)..
legions and stuff like that are pretty much left alone because of the members and it's not like they are actually running an illegal gambling "RING", a stag is a stag is a stag, and other than that...as an organizer and or player, you just have to take the risk. As a player you have to hope that your organizer is somewhat alright and hasn't had complaints or dealings with the law. And as an organizer, you have to hope that you don't piss anyone off or get to big to often.
Can we make a forum topic for Legal questions, post Scotty's normal disclaimer at the top of it and then hire a gaming lawyer to clarify once and for all?