quick hand for some analysis that is a good example of one of my major problems

CrazyJoe113

i sit down at .25/.50 NL table and about 2 full rotations in i get QsQh on the button 2 limpers when it gets around to me, i raise to $2.00 (4BB) blinds fold and the 2 limpers call. (Since only 2 rotations in, i dont know the players well.) Flop comes 6h 8s 5s, checked to me, i bet $2, next player raises to $8, folded to me, i raise to $16, he goes all in for $18.70 more on top. At this point i say "christ, did you flop a set, i'm going to be really pissed if you did" because i figure that's exactly what happened, that he flopped a set and i am way behind obviously, with 2 Qs and a backdoor flush draw being my only outs. I called anyway feeling very strongly i was behind, i find that's where i lose the most, calling when i really think i'm beat, but not being able to get away from it. He of course had 6s6c. Turn came 2s and gave me hope for the flush, but river 8c gave him a full house instead.

Any thoughts on this hand in particular and any advice on making better laydowns when you have a strong idea you are beat?

P.S.

couple of people at the table were at least impressed i called his set..... i think

Hork42

I'm not a fan of the $2 flop bet into the $6.75 pot. You have an overpair.. it's not a monster, and there are draws on the board. People with draws will correctly call you. You get a little lucky when someone raises behind you, so you can raise to $16 and that kills the odds for anyone on a draw. But now you're likely against a made hand if he calls. When he reraises your reraise and you correctly put him on the set, you don't have odds to continue. There is no more money going into the pot since he is all in. So you have the two Queens, and maybe another out and a half to the backdoor flush - nowhere near the 2:1 required to call his allin.

Unknown

I don't think you raised enough preflop.  A general rule of thumb is this: if your 'standard' preflop open-raise is 3 or 4 times the BB, you have to add one BB for every player who has limped in.  In this case, there have been 2 limpers, so you would raise (3 or 4) X BB + 2 = (5 or 6) X BB total.  In a NL cash game where the blinds are relatively small compared to the stacks, and the implied odds are huge, I'd raise it up even more.  And, if it's a loose table, even more still.  So, a total raise with 2 limpers in already at a loose NL cash game would probably be 7 or 8 X BB total, IMO.  Would this have been enough to chase out 66?  Maybe, maybe not.  Do you WANT to chase out hands like 66?  Probably not, since you're going to beat the sixes over 80% of the time.  That doesn't change the fact that I believe an error was made preflop.

And, as Hork42 mentioned, the $2 bet on such a draw-heavy flop is waaaaaaaay too small.  I'd bet the pot here, or close to it.  Because you bet so little, it's tough to tell if your opponent is stealing with his raise, or if he has a real hand.  Then, when you re-raise, you're saying 'I have a real hand'.  And when he comes over the top, it's either 'I have a real real hand', or, 'I still don't believe you'.  Again, because of your small initial flop bet, it's tough to tell, and it puts you in a difficult spot.

Hope that helped.

literation

all_aces wrote:

I don't think you raised enough preflop.  A general rule of thumb is this: if your 'standard' preflop open-raise is 3 or 4 times the BB, you have to add one BB for every player who has limped in.  In this case, there have been 2 limpers, so you would raise (3 or 4) X BB + 2 = (5 or 6) X BB total.  In a NL cash game where the blinds are relatively small compared to the stacks, and the implied odds are huge, I'd raise it up even more.  And, if it's a loose table, even more still.  So, a total raise with 2 limpers in already at a loose NL cash game would probably be 7 or 8 X BB total, IMO.

My lord and I've actually been making money at the 1/2 NL tables!  Thanks for this, I haven't read it anywhere and it explains some of the preflop play I've seen.  It probably means I need to expand my poker library.  Should I buy your DVD or something?

Unknown

LOL, thanks literation.  I think I made up that whole 'add one big blind to your raise for each limper before you' thing, but I might not have.  Regardless, it's something you probably already do, by instinct, but I like the way I've made it a 'system'.  Again, who knows, I might have stolen it out of some book and forgotten about it.

As for the DVD, you won't find much in the way of NL thinking in there, but I appreciate you asking...