Right call or Chip bleed?

sweetjimmi

PokerStars Game #1335806161: Tournament #5833417, Hold'em No Limit -
Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/03/10 - 20:23:23 (ET)
Table '5833417 53' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: livreid (23970 in chips)
Seat 2: Dogday (15082 in chips)
Seat 3: kqnd (18894 in chips)
Seat 4: TheRedBaron (7625 in chips)
Seat 5: sweetjimmi (35055 in chips)
Seat 6: DWalker (22300 in chips)
Seat 7: John A.H. (9405 in chips)
Seat 8: TIMJACK (5400 in chips)
Seat 9: KBroz (14830 in chips)
livreid: posts the ante 25
Dogday: posts the ante 25
kqnd: posts the ante 25
TheRedBaron: posts the ante 25
sweetjimmi: posts the ante 25
DWalker: posts the ante 25
John A.H.: posts the ante 25
TIMJACK: posts the ante 25
KBroz: posts the ante 25
kqnd: posts small blind 200
TheRedBaron: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sweetjimmi [7h 7d]
sweetjimmi: calls 400
DWalker: calls 400
John A.H.: folds
TIMJACK: folds
KBroz: folds
livreid: folds
Dogday: calls 400
kqnd: calls 200
TheRedBaron: raises 7200 to 7600 and is all-in
sweetjimmi: CALL OR FOLD?

At this point the pot is $2,225 (before TheRedBaron acts) and am obviously not getting odds to call (if I think I'm behind) but I have played with TheRedBaron and I don't think he pushes so hard with a big hand here. So I am thinking he is on a steal but against most steals I think he is on I could be 50/50 to lose.

Call or fold?

Answer in white font bellow:

I decide to gamble some what and I call to see his Q2o. No Queen and he goes to the rail. The reason I am posting this though is I'm not sure if this is just chip bleeding or good accumalating? The $7,200 is far from going to hurt me but is a nice addition to my stack...thoughts?

Flint Bones

I think it is a tough call. He may be on a steal but might have the cards to back it up vs your pocket 7s. As for Chip Bleed if you do lose this hand you should still be the leader over DWalker but Livreid will have a few on you. Of course if you win, you're sailing.

My final decision would be based on where I am in the tournament. How many are left, what pays, ect ect.

Knowing me, I would call him. Not the best choice but that's what I would have done.

----Read your actual choice----

It worked out for you. It was a gamble but not one that would have killed you if you lost.

rgspence

IMHO, in order to win a table you have to eliminate players. If you have the chance to eliminate a player, you have to decide if the loss of chips at that point is worth the effort. In this case, for me anyways, I think pockets sevens not that strong of a hand to call a big bet, but the amount of chips I would lose here (7200) is not a big loss compared to my stack, and it gives me the chance to eliminate compitition. So yes, I beleive that you made the right play by calling him and not letting him steal. I would have played it the same.

rgspence

just read your answer, good call. IMO.

BBC Z

I think UTG limping with 77 is chip bleed. You don't know how many opponents there are going to be, and I doubt very many pots get to a flop without being raised. When you get raised you are left with a very tough decision. Actually, it shouldn't be a tough decision because you should already know what you plan on doing if someone moves all-in. In this case, fold and wonder why you were in the hand in the first place.

Also, I don't see very many steal attempts from the BB into 4 callers. Especially two UTG limpers.

BBC Z

IMHO, in order to win a table you have to eliminate players. If you have the chance to eliminate a player, you have to decide if the loss of chips at that point is worth the effort.

Hell no. You don't go out of your way to eliminate players. Let the other table sheriffs do that for you. You want the most risk-free path to the money possible.

ScottyZ

Easy fold.

If you're going to play it like a drawing hand, then play it like a drawing hand.

Limping in pre-flop is generally fine. Your goal is to see a cheap flop and see if you can spike a set. The trouble is that you're going to have to get away from it facing a big pre-flop raise. If a lot of the pre-flop pots are getting jammed, you might consider throwing it away for even just the BB.

Finally, I would never just call here. Push all-in if you decide you're going to play the hand. You don't want to get the opponents behind you to get involved with hands like 2 overcards or 88-JJ. With one (or both) of the other opponents in behing you, you're getting into a tricky huge pot that you'd have problems getting away from (due to bet size vs. pot size) if your opponent with chips hits something.

ScottyZ

rgspence

ScottyZ wrote:

Finally, I would never just call here. Push all-in if you decide going to play the hand. You don't want to get the opponents behind you to get involved with hands like 2 overcards or 88-JJ. With one (or both) of the other opponents in behing you, you're getting into a tricky huge pot that you'd have problems getting away from (due to bet size vs. pot size) if your opponent with chips hits something.

ScottyZ

This I fully agree with.

rgspence

BBC Z wrote:

Hell no. You don't go out of your way to eliminate players. Let the other table sheriffs do that for you. You want the most risk-free path to the money possible.

But sometimes I like to play Earpp. It depends on the players at the table, for the most part I let the others fight stuff out. But short stack going all-in, gotta try it. Going over the top and raising all-in I do agree with.

sweetjimmi

I think UTG limping with 77 is chip bleed. You don't know how many opponents there are going to be, and I doubt very many pots get to a flop without being raised. When you get raised you are left with a very tough decision. Actually, it shouldn't be a tough decision because you should already know what you plan on doing if someone moves all-in. In this case, fold and wonder why you were in the hand in the first place

You can't assume (as you know what they say about assuming) this about the texture of a table. At an aggressive table I'm folding this hand or raising. In this case it is very likely I'm going to see the flop for the BB so calling with the chance to win a huge pot is very likely here. But limping with 77 is not what I'm asking about!!!!

Also, I don't see very many steal attempts from the BB into 4 callers. Especially two UTG limpers.

The question was about calling the raise from TheRedBaron (not Jonny Random). So unless you can say you can't see TheRedBaron (who as I said I have played with before and is quite capible of making a steal attempt here) making a steal here then you're wrong. I would be able to make a steal attempt here especially the way the table was playing at the time. Four limpers doesn't usually scream strength to me.

Push all-in

This crossed my mind but I couldn't pull the trigger...obviously the wrong play since I probably have to fold to a reraise.

Again, I mention the hand because I felt very strong that the player was on a steal and am interested in your thoughts on playing after the raise...not about whether limping UTG with 77 was a chip bleed (which it may be).

BBC Z

The question was about calling the raise from TheRedBaron (not Jonny Random). So unless you can say you can't see TheRedBaron (who as I said I have played with before and is quite capible of making a steal attempt here) making a steal here then you're wrong. I would be able to make a steal attempt here especially the way the table was playing at the time. Four limpers doesn't usually scream strength to me.

Did you really asked a forum what you should do in a specific instance of a table against specific players yet fail to describe the players or the table in any meaningful way?

Or was this just another post where someone asks a question accepting only one answer that validates their play?

But limping with 77 is not what I'm asking about!!!!

Well your title asks if it's chip bleed. So I assumed you were talking about the preflop play.

rgspence wrote:

Going over the top and raising all-in I do agree with.

Wait.. so for the privilige of busting out a shortstack, you are willing to put your tourney on the line at the same time and re-raise all-in? Thats an awesome play that sees you bust quite often when bigger stacks pick up a hand and gains you nothing when they don't.

ScottyZ

Push all-in

I think I may have been misquoted here. :cool:

For absolute clarity, I would fold to the pre-flop raise. And I think it's not a very close decision, even if you put the raiser on stealing a good portion of the time.

ScottyZ

sweetjimmi

Did you really asked a forum what you should do in a specific instance of a table against specific players yet fail to describe the players or the table in any meaningful way?

I asked about this specific situation against a specific player who I gave my thoughts on. What the hell else is a forum for? As for the rest of the limpers I really didn't think they would follow behind me. I probably should have reraised but I didn't pull the trigger...again I thought that the raiser was very capible of stealing here and was interested in your thoughts as to play after the raise not about limping with 77.

Or was this just another post where someone asks a question accepting only one answer that validates their play?

I never once said you were wrong in your analysis of folding the 77 to the raise but I don't agree with your thoughts on limping with 77 here. I didn't give details of the table as I am mostly interested in what you do with the raise from a player who is very capible of stealing.

sweetjimmi

I think I may have been misquoted here.

For absolute clarity, I would fold to the pre-flop raise. And I think it's not a very close decision, even if you put the raiser on stealing a good portion of the time.

Nope, just stating that I agree that by staying I should have been reraising...I understood you were folding here.

sweetjimmi

Oh, and one other thing...if I really thought I made a spectacular play why would I post it? I won the hand and am very interested in hearing everyone's opinions...whether I agree or not has nothing to do with the thread.

Chugs

Easy fold, you're uch more talented and can manufacture the chips without putting yourself in a likely coin flip.

For the record while i don't know what he had, even with Ace-Rag i like his all-in in that spot. It's a classic squeeze, with so many limpers everyone is worried about each other and you likely end up with a cascading ring of folds. He may get called (by a hand like 77) and he's a coin flip but he may pick up a nice uncontested pot.

sweetjimmi

For the record while i don't know what he had, even with Ace-Rag i like his all-in in that spot.

I agree but the table texture has to be right...which in this situation was perfect...but I disagree you want to be called by middle pairs.

BBC Z

I asked about this specific situation against a specific player who I gave my thoughts on. What the hell else is a forum for? As for the rest of the limpers I really didn't think they would follow behind me. I probably should have reraised but I didn't pull the trigger...again I thought that the raiser was very capible of stealing here and was interested in your thoughts as to play after the raise not about limping with 77.

Well you need to tell us:

1) What the actual table texture was
2) What style the other limpers play
3) How agressive was the table
4) What your image of this table was

When you don't bother giving out the full description of an event and then use 'Well you dont know what the table was like' as a defense against objecting opinions, you make for a pointless discussion.

Redington

sweetjimmi wrote:

You can't assume (as you know what they say about assuming) this about the texture of a table. At an aggressive table I'm folding this hand or raising. In this case it is very likely I'm going to see the flop for the BB so calling with the chance to win a huge pot is very likely here. But limping with 77 is not what I'm asking about!!!!

I see your point Jimmi, But making the call and limping with 77 are not mutually exclusive.

Either you figured that he would go on a big bluff and you could bust him, which means you were looking for him to go all in and that would mean you wanted to call. Hence there was no decision.

Or you wanted to slip into the flop with 77 and hope to hit a set, which would mean you fold to the all in reraise. In which you didn't follow your decision.

sweetjimmi wrote:

Again, I mention the hand because I felt very strong that the player was on a steal and am interested in your thoughts on playing after the raise...not about whether limping UTG with 77 was a chip bleed (which it may be).

Do you limp in with 77 everytime you have it? What about taking control of a passive table? Or against someone who is on a rush?

If you always limp in with 77, then it is going to cost you $$ down the road.

Personally I like the limp in. Im not sure I like the call, but that has to be judged on a few things, what do you think Barron has?

What will everyone else think if you call with 77, kinda makes a weak steal questionable against you.

Will you get paid of the next time you bet...

So if you lost the 7k, what would you gain down the road? Is it worth the investment?

wader

I'd fold............regardless of your opponents prior playing style. I know that you won the hand but remember even a maniac can find a hand every now and then and that can be devistating. I'd let him take it down and wait for a stronger hand to trap him with.

Wader

mragmoore

My perspective is that you gambled on a weak hand and didn't need to.

It seems more important to protect the chip-lead.