Stinking Multi-Table tournament (aka I stink) ... 2/2
Ok a couple of orbits go by and I pickup the blinds atleast once so my stack has roughly the same figure at the end of 1/2. Blinds are going to go up and I figure ... well i know ... i need to pickup a hand to keep myself alive. In the big blind I get K3 (of all things) and see a free flop.
Cards come K9x. SB checks, I check two limpers check to the button who bets $900 into a $500 pot. SB folds and it is to me. Here is my thinking in this hand ...
$900 is an overbet so I don't think he wants a caller. Moreover, he has a stack of about $4000 and is big stack at our table (and playing aggressively) so there is a better than average chance he is trying to pickup the pot here on a bluff. I figure he probably has a hand like Kx (where x = no kicker), a hand like A9 or T9 or maybe a medium sized pocket pair (although he would probably raise that one preflop) or maybe a hand like QJ where he has a gutshot.
Anyway factoring all this in I figure I am either outkicked or a favourite in the hand ... I put the rest of my chips in and he shows me KT, one of the hands I figured he would have and not want to be called with.
I go home now.
If I fold this hand I am SB with $400 chips ($50 would be my SB) and the blinds going up in a couple of mins. Is this a bad spot for my money? I don't think my logic is completely flawed, but I think it probably comes down to evaluation of tournament risk ... in a money game I would not often get into this situation.
Also, I did think about coming out in this hand rather then calling off all my money (which I hate). But I didn't because (to be honest) I figured if it was bet and raised I could get away from my hand, and if it was checked around I would go all-in there and take my chances. Basically I wanted to give myself a chance to fold the hand. The one player I could reasonably put on a bluff made the bet which put me in a spot where I called off all my money.
Granted in hindsight, if I go all-in I would get called by KT anyway.
Cards come K9x. SB checks, I check two limpers check to the button who bets $900 into a $500 pot. SB folds and it is to me. Here is my thinking in this hand ...
$900 is an overbet so I don't think he wants a caller. Moreover, he has a stack of about $4000 and is big stack at our table (and playing aggressively) so there is a better than average chance he is trying to pickup the pot here on a bluff. I figure he probably has a hand like Kx (where x = no kicker), a hand like A9 or T9 or maybe a medium sized pocket pair (although he would probably raise that one preflop) or maybe a hand like QJ where he has a gutshot.
Anyway factoring all this in I figure I am either outkicked or a favourite in the hand ... I put the rest of my chips in and he shows me KT, one of the hands I figured he would have and not want to be called with.
I go home now.
If I fold this hand I am SB with $400 chips ($50 would be my SB) and the blinds going up in a couple of mins. Is this a bad spot for my money? I don't think my logic is completely flawed, but I think it probably comes down to evaluation of tournament risk ... in a money game I would not often get into this situation.
Also, I did think about coming out in this hand rather then calling off all my money (which I hate). But I didn't because (to be honest) I figured if it was bet and raised I could get away from my hand, and if it was checked around I would go all-in there and take my chances. Basically I wanted to give myself a chance to fold the hand. The one player I could reasonably put on a bluff made the bet which put me in a spot where I called off all my money.
Granted in hindsight, if I go all-in I would get called by KT anyway.
Comments
Up until I got to that point in your post, one of my own thoughts was, "Why didn't he bet that out himself"? True that you may get called by KT in this particular case, but the button (or other players) might fold some of the other weak hands you mentioned. Plus, it may turn out to be a value bet if the button tries to be "the hero" and makes a bad call trying to eliminate you with some weak hand like T9. The point about tournament risk aversion is that you'd generally rather not be called T9 because if he draws out, you're gone. On the other hand, short stacks aren't *nearly* as risk averse as usual in tournaments (unless they are trying to stay alive to climb the prize ladder one or two more steps). This is probably a fine spot to get in there and gamble. 8)
ScottyZ
Often when I bet straight out all-in I would rather then have any callers so I am trying to push them out (although usually happy to have a caller if I get one). When I check there and am willing to call, I am hoping to get into the pot against someone with a worse hand ... But still have the chance to fold the hand if there is too much action for my liking.
For example, if somoene in middle position bet out and another guy called I would muck my K3 quick and easy. *shrug*
And that's a good point about when you're on a short stack, you're rooting for bad hands like T9 to call. If you (and your opponent) have a lot of chips, you might want that hand to fold, but with a short stack I think you're right that you'd most often (again, unless you're trying to merely survive for some reason) want to get the maximum chips in with the best of it regardless of the risk.
ScottyZ
Player A, Raises all in pre-flop
Player B, re-raises all in
Player C, calls
All 3 players (were big stacks)are all in.
Player A: AKs
Ply B: AA
Plr C:44 ?? :shock:
The flop comes x4x....Anyway player C wins with the set, WTF!?
How do you call an all in bet with 44? The blinds are something like 200-400. Player C now has T70,000
I am very short stacked and the cards have been very cold for me. I am lucky to be alive and end up getting knocked out in 37th place (350 players +R.B.)
Player C ends up only a few places ahead of me..Crazy!
Thanks for the info KW, Scotty, Dave. It is all helpfull. 8)
1. a small-to-medium stack which is small enough to feel the need to start gambling a little, but big enough to withstand losing to the other 2 players; or
2. an enormous stack, so the opportunity to knock players out might justify the possibility of having the worst of it.
Of course, it might also just be a bonheaded play...
Do you remember (roughly) the stack sizes?
ScottyZ
Ex. 3 people left in a small tournament and I have the big stack. A very tiny stack went all-in from SB ... the BB was something like 10k and he went all-in for 12k. Obviously I call with any hand here (it happened to be 96o).
I guess what i am saying is there are clear situations where you should try to get rid of a player with a dog, but there are a lot more situations where you should muck your dog and wait for greener pastures (especially anytime before the end of a tournament where your benefit from taking the guy out isn't nearly as valuable as the extra chips you would have to commit).
I see what you mean here, and I would also only *rarely* go out of my way specifically to bust someone myself. Sklansky also addresses this point well in his tournament book.
Some things that *might* makes this situation a little different are:
1. This is a satellite tournament. If you are somewhat close to the prize spots, it might be worth taking a shot at two players. By playing, you are trading off possibly tripling up one player instead of doubling them up (which might not make a difference to you if you're on a big stack) for the chance to knock out two players instead of just one.
2. I was considering the case of an *enormous* stack, by which I meant that you'd have to be extremely indifferent to losing the particular amount of chips at risk. But the stack obviously can't be so big that he could very easily fold into the prize spots instead of playing here.
3. The quality of the hand definitely matters--- I certainly wouldn't take a shot here with two random cards. A small pair might not even have the worst of it as much as one might think. You're obviously up poo-poo creek without any toilet paper if you're against a bigger pair, but your opponents both having Aces leaves you in pretty good shape with your baby pair.
To be honest, I'd probably fold the 44 here nearly 100% of the time myself, but there might be the odd situation where calling would not be a bad play I think. I guess the real answer is we need more information on how big the stacks involved are (and average stacks), number of players, and how many prize slots are available.
If there is 1 prize slot and 50 players left, this is a horrible call. With 40 prize slots and 50 players, it's more debatable. And with 48 prize slots and 50 players the call is suddenly automatic. In fact, in the last case, probably *every* player at the table who comfortably out-stacks the original two all-in players should call.
ScottyZ
The 3 (large) stacks were all around $20,000ish, and the average was probably around $6000ish. (At this table)
Around 50 players left and only the top 6 get paid out.
After the hand...
You mean the 44 was calling 2 other *large* stacks who were all-in?!
*sigh* I guess I must have missed this:
Then I think this is a horrible, horrible call.
ScottyZ
Yes. These 3 players were the chip leaders at my table.
I am not so sure about the AK's decision to move all in, in early position.
Then AA of course is going to call and raises slightly but then the 44 calls all in, in late position...
Like I said, the 44 player ended up busting out shortly after I did...And rightly so IMO.