To Milo, compuease & wildbill7145, would you do anything different with questions 1-4? For example, what would you rule in a home cash game if a player checks out of turn then later raises?
By the way, I have downloaded The International Poker Rules to my mobile devices so I can look things up whenever there is an interesting ruling in a live poker room.
playing 2/5, up to ~$850. My table gets broken up and i move to a new table. I raise in ep to $20 with
:jc:jd
villain 3bets to $70, with almost as much as me. He seems to be inexperienced, as i have seen him act out-of-turn the night before and does not seem to be familiar with live rules. One hand i remember is that a lag open-raised, a 5/10 lag who played in wpt napc 3-bet to $100 in mp, & this villain flatted in sb. On flop of k-8-4, villain donk overbet all-in; folded to wpt lag who tanked & showed a king, and inexperienced villain showed his a-k; wpt lag then makes easy fold of his k-q.
1) wwyd to raise of $50 more?
i would likely call/raise with a 75/25 ratio. More raising against weaker players, obv. If villain puts me on a credible ep hand, what is he re-raising with? 10-10+, a-q+ (a-j suited?)?
i opt to flat with the jacks. Pot is $146 and flop is
:qc:9d:6s
2) wwyd?
check call to an anticipated c-bet.
i opt to check & villain checks behind. Turn is
:jh
villain acts out-of-turn and checks.
3) wwyd?
bet out . . . As stated previous, low % that you are behind.
i bet $120 with my set. Villain changes his oot check to an all-in overbet raise to ~$640 more! Dealer states that he can only call since he had checked oot. Villain agrees to just call.
Several players disagree with the dealer and the floor is called.
This I have a bit of a problem with. I understand protecting themselves against future rulings, but they are not involved in this hand. It is almost like they are playing his hand FOR him, which is wrong.
I remain quiet while tanking about the possible all-in and in order not to give off any tells.
4) which poker rooms would rule that since i bet, villain can now do whatever he wants even though he may been angling with the oot check? Which rooms follow robert's rule of poker which states that
"a player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act"
and would agree with the dealer that villain cannot raise my bet?
Which rule would you use in your home game?
he acted out of turn, but it in no way altered what your options were. Once you bet, i would allow him to have all options open to him that you did. I would also issue a warning about acting out of turn.
the floor supervisor, whom i thought was even better than 13cards, decides that the house rule in this casino is that oot villain can now do whatever he wants after my bet.
5) wwyd? With the pot currently at $386, his all-in raise is for $640 more, leaving me with only a couple of chips & a chair; winner will get the pot of almost $1,700!
To Milo, compuease & wildbill7145, would you do anything different with questions 1-4? For example, what would you rule in a home cash game if a player checks out of turn then later raises?
Among my friends ($10.00 buy-in) I would allow the Villain all options. If this were a habit, I might follow a warning/penalty procedure that would would eventually limit him to calling only, but you mentioned that he seemed inexperienced, so I doubt it's an angle shoot.
By the way, I have downloaded The International Poker Rules to my mobile devices so I can look things up whenever there is an interesting ruling in a live poker room.
The International Poker Rules are nice, as are the TDA and Robert's Rules. But we all know that the HOUSE Rules are the ones that count.
38: Action Out of Turn (OOT)
Action out of turn is subject to penalty and is binding if the action to the OOT player has not changed. A check, call or fold does not change action. If action changes, the OOT bet is not binding and is returned to the OOT player who has all options including: calling, raising, or folding. An OOT fold is binding.
With your description if villain, I am not folding, ever... You are behind QQ, K10 and my fav 10,8. QQ is complete cooler, can you really put his 3 bet pre on either of the other 2?
Quoted from other thread.
I really don't do much different than Milo said or you did. Certainly not folding as described...
Personally I cringe as soon as I see JJ, however reading and re-reading the hand I'd likely play it exactly as you did. Can't see you being behind and if you are, as Comp said in the other thread it's a cooler.
I would rule as RROP clearly states and allow only a call. It's slightly surprising that "several" players disagreed with the dealer and I can only assume they are regs at that particular casino and familiar with the particular house rules. Strange that the dealer wasn't.
The most important consideration is "How would JohnnieH rule?"
Please note that this post is made for humourous purposes only, and is not meant to elicit a response from the aforementioned JohnnieH. Particularly as this might get him in trouble with his new employers, and nobody wants that . . .
38: Action Out of Turn (OOT)
Action out of turn is subject to penalty and is binding if the action to the OOT player has not changed. A check, call or fold does not change action. If action changes, the OOT bet is not binding and is returned to the OOT player who has all options including: calling, raising, or folding. An OOT fold is binding.
I don't think any of us need reminding that Tournies =/= Cash game, do we?
I play it the same way on every street, call shove.
This.
My question is why would you want to raise more against weaker players as oppose to call and giving those players more chances to make mistakes post flop?
I would rule as RROP clearly states and allow only a call. It's slightly surprising that "several" players disagreed with the dealer and I can only assume they are regs at that particular casino and familiar with the particular house rules. Strange that the dealer wasn't.
If this was Fallsview, and I assume it was, based on original poster, their house rule is unfortunately:
An out of turn action is binding unless the action in front of it changes the action. If the action is changed, then the out of turn action is void and the player who acted out of turn plays the hand as if the OOT action never occurred.
This is not a direct quote, but recited from memory as I have been given this pathetic response from the floor at FV on several occasions since they introduced this rule a couple of years ago. The dealer should have known that.
Not knowing the rule before, in a home game my first instinct is to NOT allow a raise from the OOT player. He should not be allowed to benefit from his mistake. He can only call or fold.
There are few hands that have you beat that would re-raise preflop. The only one that comes to mind is QQ and he slow played the flop. But since we are assigning ranges to players and we are ahead of all of the others, its a snap call.
Wouldn't have played any of the streets any differently.
Playing 2/5, up to ~$850. My table gets broken up and I move to a new table. I raise in EP to $20 with
:jc:jd
Villain 3bets to $70, with almost as much as me. He seems to be inexperienced, as I have seen him act out-of-turn the night before and does not seem to be familiar with live rules. One hand I remember is that a LAG open-raised, a 5/10 LAG who played in WPT NAPC 3-bet to $100 in MP, & this villain flatted in SB. On flop of K-8-4, villain donk overbet all-in; folded to WPT LAG who tanked & showed a king, and inexperienced villain showed his A-K; WPT LAG then makes easy fold of his K-Q.
1) WWYD to raise of $50 more?
I opt to flat with the jacks. Pot is $146 and flop is
:qc:9d:6s
2) WWYD?
I opt to check & villain checks behind. Turn is
:jh
Villain acts out-of-turn and checks.
3) WWYD?
I bet $120 with my set. Villain changes his OOT check to an all-in overbet raise to ~$640 more! Dealer states that he can only call since he had checked OOT. Villain agrees to just call. Several players disagree with the dealer and the floor is called. I remain quiet while tanking about the possible all-in and in order not to give off any tells.
4) Which poker rooms would rule that since I bet, villain can now do whatever he wants even though he may been angling with the OOT check? Which rooms follow Robert's Rule of Poker which states that
"A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act"
and would agree with the dealer that villain cannot raise my bet?
Which rule would you use in your home game?
The floor supervisor, whom I thought was even better than 13CARDS, decides that the house rule in this casino is that OOT villain can now do whatever he wants after my bet.
5) WWYD? With the pot currently at $386, his all-in raise is for $640 more, leaving me with only a couple of chips & a chair; winner will get the pot of almost $1,700!
1. flat,
2. balance between checking and betting 90,
3. bet 90,
4. lol @ giving off tells to an inexperienced live player,
5. tough without seeing live opponent's tells (more important than you trying to mask tells in this spot)...an inexperienced player should be pretty easy to get info from in this spot, especially with all the prior commotion. In a vacuum and with the little info provided I can put him on QQ, AQ, QJ...a good live player will have KT in his range here but most inexperienced players will do something retarded like min raise the nuts here. Almost all live players will bet an overpair on that flop. Most inexperienced/bad players do not 3 bet QJ or 99 preflop which probably leaves you with QQ, AQ in this spot. The more I think about it from your description of your opponent and the description of the donk bet AK hand, QQ is pretty likely in this spot.
I'm not folding here given he doesn't likely re-raise with K10 pre-flop. If he does, good for him. If he had QQ, why would he shove with top set?
because he is bad and he is scared to see another card as the board gets more coordinated...what range does an inexperienced/bad live player 3 bet pre and take that line with post flop?
because he is bad and he is scared to see another card as the board gets more coordinated...what range does an inexperienced/bad live player 3 bet pre and take that line with post flop?
I check overpairs often live in the right spots, but hardly any inexperienced players would check 2 streets with an overpair. I guess we can throw it in as a small percentage of his range, but if he is being described accurately I don't see it.
I check overpairs often live in the right spots, but hardly any inexperienced players would check 2 streets with an overpair. I guess we can throw it in as a small percentage of his range, but if he is being described accurately I don't see it.
But, doesn't that line fit with the idea of an inexperienced player starting to fret about an ever more coordinated board?
because he is bad and he is scared to see another card as the board gets more coordinated...what range does an inexperienced/bad live player 3 bet pre and take that line with post flop?
Re-raise pre-flop with QQ makes sense but I don't see a shove with QQ here. He did shove with TPTK in the other hand so he could have AQ here or maybe QK with a gut shot and top pair. If you can fold JJ here, power to you.
How about pocket 10s? Checked the flop when the Q hit and shoved with the open ended straight draw Probably too inexperienced to make this move.
Comments
By the way, I have downloaded The International Poker Rules to my mobile devices so I can look things up whenever there is an interesting ruling in a live poker room.
call
The International Poker Rules are nice, as are the TDA and Robert's Rules. But we all know that the HOUSE Rules are the ones that count.
38: Action Out of Turn (OOT)
Action out of turn is subject to penalty and is binding if the action to the OOT player has not changed. A check, call or fold does not change action. If action changes, the OOT bet is not binding and is returned to the OOT player who has all options including: calling, raising, or folding. An OOT fold is binding.
Quoted from other thread.
I really don't do much different than Milo said or you did. Certainly not folding as described...
I would rule as RROP clearly states and allow only a call. It's slightly surprising that "several" players disagreed with the dealer and I can only assume they are regs at that particular casino and familiar with the particular house rules. Strange that the dealer wasn't.
Please note that this post is made for humourous purposes only, and is not meant to elicit a response from the aforementioned JohnnieH. Particularly as this might get him in trouble with his new employers, and nobody wants that . . .
I don't think any of us need reminding that Tournies =/= Cash game, do we?
This.
My question is why would you want to raise more against weaker players as oppose to call and giving those players more chances to make mistakes post flop?
Easy call. I don't think he'd overbet that much with any hand that beats you in this spot.
If this was Fallsview, and I assume it was, based on original poster, their house rule is unfortunately:
An out of turn action is binding unless the action in front of it changes the action. If the action is changed, then the out of turn action is void and the player who acted out of turn plays the hand as if the OOT action never occurred.
This is not a direct quote, but recited from memory as I have been given this pathetic response from the floor at FV on several occasions since they introduced this rule a couple of years ago. The dealer should have known that.
Wouldn't have played any of the streets any differently.
1. flat,
2. balance between checking and betting 90,
3. bet 90,
4. lol @ giving off tells to an inexperienced live player,
5. tough without seeing live opponent's tells (more important than you trying to mask tells in this spot)...an inexperienced player should be pretty easy to get info from in this spot, especially with all the prior commotion. In a vacuum and with the little info provided I can put him on QQ, AQ, QJ...a good live player will have KT in his range here but most inexperienced players will do something retarded like min raise the nuts here. Almost all live players will bet an overpair on that flop. Most inexperienced/bad players do not 3 bet QJ or 99 preflop which probably leaves you with QQ, AQ in this spot. The more I think about it from your description of your opponent and the description of the donk bet AK hand, QQ is pretty likely in this spot.
because he is bad and he is scared to see another card as the board gets more coordinated...what range does an inexperienced/bad live player 3 bet pre and take that line with post flop?
I can see AA and KK taking this line as well.
I check overpairs often live in the right spots, but hardly any inexperienced players would check 2 streets with an overpair. I guess we can throw it in as a small percentage of his range, but if he is being described accurately I don't see it.
But, doesn't that line fit with the idea of an inexperienced player starting to fret about an ever more coordinated board?
Re-raise pre-flop with QQ makes sense but I don't see a shove with QQ here. He did shove with TPTK in the other hand so he could have AQ here or maybe QK with a gut shot and top pair. If you can fold JJ here, power to you.
How about pocket 10s? Checked the flop when the Q hit and shoved with the open ended straight draw Probably too inexperienced to make this move.
What was her name?