Cash Game Players In Tournaments
I've been pondering something for awhile and am trying to break it down...
The last 2 years in a row, our last mans standing in the WSOP ME have been primarily cash game players. I've spoken to Khoa about his run and he really didn't have a clue how to tackle the ME until really studying Hellmuth and other tough pros at his table...obviously this worked out quickly.
Marc-Andre finished 13th and 63rd the last two years and is primarily a cash game player, bracelet winner Timothy Adams...short handed and HU cash game player. Matt Jarvis...plays a ton of cash games and obv crushes tourney.
Even our own GTA, not a self proclaimed tourney player by any stretch, yet he ships or cashes what seems to be a high percentage without much resistance.
I'm trying to peg it down to longer sessions, better attention to the opponents they play and a complete detachment from winning or losing. I wonder if they view tournaments like a cash game, it's just one long session with a different format? Mentally and range wise, I think good ring game might have an edge?
The other similarity in winning players is definetly online pokerz...almost every bracelet interview or big event winner I have interviewed is a serious online player. There is one anomloy so to speak and that would be the OPT; with that said, I conclude that they put more time into significant buy-in home tournaments that most, then play a good portion of their winnings against said players above, so it does make sense.
Of course there a few tourney grinders that play almost every night at local casinos and major series I would consider accomplished, but I don't like their chances of big ROI or a bracelet anywhere near the others. The very best grinding Canadian tourneys only are still usually >100k a year profits, most >70k and we are lucky if they hit that in winnings. I can think of ten maybe.
Cash game players however, those grinding 3+ nights a week, I can see them busting these numbers easily, plus they add tournament gravy...
Opinions on all of the above?
The last 2 years in a row, our last mans standing in the WSOP ME have been primarily cash game players. I've spoken to Khoa about his run and he really didn't have a clue how to tackle the ME until really studying Hellmuth and other tough pros at his table...obviously this worked out quickly.
Marc-Andre finished 13th and 63rd the last two years and is primarily a cash game player, bracelet winner Timothy Adams...short handed and HU cash game player. Matt Jarvis...plays a ton of cash games and obv crushes tourney.
Even our own GTA, not a self proclaimed tourney player by any stretch, yet he ships or cashes what seems to be a high percentage without much resistance.
I'm trying to peg it down to longer sessions, better attention to the opponents they play and a complete detachment from winning or losing. I wonder if they view tournaments like a cash game, it's just one long session with a different format? Mentally and range wise, I think good ring game might have an edge?
The other similarity in winning players is definetly online pokerz...almost every bracelet interview or big event winner I have interviewed is a serious online player. There is one anomloy so to speak and that would be the OPT; with that said, I conclude that they put more time into significant buy-in home tournaments that most, then play a good portion of their winnings against said players above, so it does make sense.
Of course there a few tourney grinders that play almost every night at local casinos and major series I would consider accomplished, but I don't like their chances of big ROI or a bracelet anywhere near the others. The very best grinding Canadian tourneys only are still usually >100k a year profits, most >70k and we are lucky if they hit that in winnings. I can think of ten maybe.
Cash game players however, those grinding 3+ nights a week, I can see them busting these numbers easily, plus they add tournament gravy...
Opinions on all of the above?
Comments
Funny, this was a discussion on a podcast I listened to last night, andrew feldman covered the cash game player "theme" in the ME this year.
Link? very interested. Would work well in thread too.
I could maaaybe dig it up.... I have an app on my iPhone for all sorts of poker podcasts lol
ill see what i can find
boom.
I think cash game players are more represented in the bigger tourneys simply because they are more likely then a strictly tourney only player to have a bigger bankroll to afford those tourney, especially here in Canada where there just isn't enough of a circuit for someone to be successful with tournaments alone.
The thing that cash game players just need to brush up on a little is push fold situations and ICM calculations etc.
As pointed out I will definitely play tournaments but the real money comes from the cash games at the tournament.
Can't say that I play alot of tournaments because I don't. It's great though when a 'tourny donk' is in a game willing to get his stack in with tptk. That's profitable for sure although I also can't say that it happens all that much anymore.
On the flipside I would say that success in tournaments comes through alot of luck. Sure you have to be good to be lucky but I think it's a mistake as bad as the tptk to call with suited connectors when your implied odds are anything less than about 20 times the size of your call. About half that for set mining and 1-1/2 for suited gappers (Bart Hanson) How many tournament players besides the very best even consider this stuff?
Totally agree cash players have a big advantage when deep.
They have no idea about shove ranges, come to any mtt with less that 60 min blinds and watch em get worked.
Cash players are nits, fuck em.
Doubt that. Do you think I don't know shove ranges?
Sit at a 1/2 table with GTA or BMZ, LOL nits.
I do think that experienced tournament players have some situational edges in tournies - in addition to the ICM calculations mentioned by Blackmagicz, I find that good tournament players will take advantage of situations in the very early blind levels and also as the tourney nears the bubble... But in general, cash game players have the edge.
I would consider myself a tourney player, yet, when I look at hours logged this year, I'm at 50/50 tourney/cash.
Talking about tournys not cash games. Most tournaments seems to be 2.5 to 3bb pre, early on anyways.