i hate jacks
tell me how bad i butchered this one.
PokerStars - $8+$0.80|60/120 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: PokerTracker
UTG+1: 11,486.00
MP: 8,700.00
MP+1: 11,013.00
LP: 7,849.00
Hero (CO): 8,122.00
BTN: 8,090.00
SB: 8,924.00
BB: 7,646.00
UTG: 4,860.00
UTG+1 posts ante 15.00, MP posts ante 15.00, MP+1 posts ante 15.00, LP posts ante 15.00, Hero posts ante 15.00, BTN posts ante 15.00, SB posts ante 15.00, BB posts ante 15.00, UTG posts ante 15.00, SB posts SB 60.00, BB posts BB 120.00
Pre Flop: (315.00) Hero has Jc Jd
UTG raises to 240.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 240.00, BTN raises to 600.00, fold, fold, UTG calls 360.00, Hero calls 360.00
Flop: (2115.00, 3 players) 6h 5h Th
UTG bets 1,800.00, fold, fold
UTG wins 2,115.00
PokerStars - $8+$0.80|60/120 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: PokerTracker
UTG+1: 11,486.00
MP: 8,700.00
MP+1: 11,013.00
LP: 7,849.00
Hero (CO): 8,122.00
BTN: 8,090.00
SB: 8,924.00
BB: 7,646.00
UTG: 4,860.00
UTG+1 posts ante 15.00, MP posts ante 15.00, MP+1 posts ante 15.00, LP posts ante 15.00, Hero posts ante 15.00, BTN posts ante 15.00, SB posts ante 15.00, BB posts ante 15.00, UTG posts ante 15.00, SB posts SB 60.00, BB posts BB 120.00
Pre Flop: (315.00) Hero has Jc Jd
UTG raises to 240.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 240.00, BTN raises to 600.00, fold, fold, UTG calls 360.00, Hero calls 360.00
Flop: (2115.00, 3 players) 6h 5h Th
UTG bets 1,800.00, fold, fold
UTG wins 2,115.00
Comments
yeah i agree. i've done this before too thinking that i'll play it like a smaller pocket pair though. doesn't seem to work out well however.
I mean if you are 3B what are you looking to do on the flop? Are you looking to get it in on a rag board? You are pretty deep and playing for stacks may not be necessary at this point?
PLAYING FOR STACKS IS ALWAYS NECESSARY IMO
that was my reasoning for just flatting and playing it like a small pocket pair. miss the flop = easy fold.
When we are deciding whether to flat or 3bet, we ask a very simple question:
Am I ahead of his 4bet/get-it-in range?
If he only 4bets QQ+ and AK then you are crushed when you get your money in (63/36).
We don't even care about how deep we are, we only care about our equity and dead money (there is little in this hand).
If you can't profitable get it in vs his 4bet, then you can flat according to gap theory (I will usually flat JJ here).
If a hand that is too weak to 3bet or flat sometimes you can 3bet as a bluff and fold to a 4bet. You will do this vs good regs because their range has a lot of air in it, and we can make money off our junk hands and fold to his 4bets.
I might re-pop and get its in vs the button here, would try to find some sort of read though. After the squeeze I prob call and setmine/evaluate ya i usually fold flop here. Mostly cause its mono and you have no flush card, that kills your equity here especially 3 way and sometimes your already crushed.
If villian on the puck is any sort of competent , this is a great spot for a squeeze with a wide range.
Also, if button squeezes wide this is a perfect omfg my mouth is watering flat spot
Is this a vacuum play or overall tourney strategy? In otherwords jj+ is a snap shove no matter how deep we are?(BB and level) I am just trying to understand if this a volume reload tournaments or if shoving with JJ is profitable this early in a tourney.
It may be a leak in my game, I don't like to re-open with jj under...especially with 30bb+
3 betting here allows us to put villian(s) on a way more specific range . If we 3b in this spot and get 4b behind, or by utg, we can assume that their ranges are always TT+ aq+ . We can flat their 4b and easily fold if overs come... if they shove on our 3b, we can always assume that they have AK, KK, QQ, TT maaayyyyyybe AQ, and even then we are flipping/dominated so if they move in, we will be all like :-\
do we get it in pre here?
Personally, I would consider it lol. for me, the deeper stacked I am, the better- I can open up more, 3,4,5b light, and start being hyper aggro and keep chipping up ... its worth it to me to hopefully be flipping so that I can have my edge. this might sound like an insane reasoning but its the way it is. I always feel like I need to get deep so I can start playing post flop with villians
For others, maybe playing a more passive style, and waiting to get your money in good and chipping up that way is better.. its less variance and it works. Some people's pre flop game is sharper than playing post flop and factoring in hand equity, value, and pricing to peel cards
Also, I forgot to mention... Alot of these type of decisions are very villian dependant.. so note taking and HUD stats are even more helpful on putting villians on ranges and determining where we stand pre.
should also add, in this hand, its villian dependant.. there's no questioning Jacks suck, period.
also, utg isnt nutted, his lead is way to big to be value....
Why so caps lock?
Flatting jacks isn't horrible. This isn't a great spot for a squeeze nor is bu squeeze range very wide
this is not a reason to 3 bet, I wrote the reasons above...you are ignoring them
This is the opposite way to play poker. Any time you 3betting and then he 4bets and say to yourself ":-\Oh fuck:-\" you know you are doing it wrong.
no thats ridiculous
Nope.
I'd recommend not doing any such thing.
Your edge comes from not doing any of this stuff, not from putting your stack in with a marginal hand against villains nutted range.
yes its insane and no its not the way it is at all
You are as deep as you get in tourney poker, and you are avoiding post flop by trying to go the chips in pre.
Its not less variance to wait to get your money in good, its winning poker.
Now you are just saying random poker words.
Yes but you have to use them for them to help.
What exactly did you depend on to make this decision? Yes there is questioning it because Jacks don't suck at all, they are among the top 2 percent hands you can be dealt. Utg is obviously nutted and betting for value.
you are no better than me, in fact, stats will show im a much better mtt player than you
stop berating my thought process, even though it differs from yours.
we all have different styles
there is no denying your turbo game is off the chain and that you are excellent with math and theory
im so sick of you making me out to look like a retard when i shed some light from my point of view
I thought it was all the same though?
Also I dont really think Darb was trying to attack you here. I think he raised some good points to be honest... Ur thought process had me scratching my head a bit at times. And thats fine! Thats what this forum is all about...
graphs?
everyone has their own views on how to play the game
mine differes from darb's no big deal
sorry for opening my yap and over reacting, im really on edge lately.
what happened to the live cash game plans?
My thought process has always been in a vacuum most times when you 3bet with JJ and unless you have a super read or he's a euro donk the 4bet is the "oh fuck" and then you are usually left to call the 4 bet and fold if you brick or fold pre and cry about it later.
I also look at it from a pot building prospective in a way that if villian is a hyper aggro donk he is still going to be giving you credit if you are 3 betting and will establish a range depending on your profile.
So example: you 3 bet with jj against hyper aggro and villian then 4 bets you. You have bloated a pot and now flop comes random junk, you have pot flop and he min raises you. Now mathematically you are almost committing your stack because you have bloated a pot and checking the flop gives up control and you still don't know where you are at.
I think based on this knowledge and the posts its effectively not 3betting or flatting is the issue but tailoring your bet sizing to allow for a better read on a hand range.
I just find personally the stacks are going in based on math scenarios if the pot is bloated and you have no room to play post flop.
Good discussion so far.
1. Saying villain isn't nutted with the bet on the flop and saying that he's not betting for value is super different. I agree that he probably doesn't have a set or a flush but he's rarely not betting for some kind of value (like AK with no heart etc)
2. someone said there are different styles. That's probably correct so unless you have a super clear reason to 3bet which I don't have here, our hand is strong enough to flat, then let that part slide and focus on the "as played I would..." part
3. Jacks are a great hand, not particularly hard to play at all imo. I always get really happy to get dealt jacks at any stage of a tournament
Another "jamie gold" in WSOPE - YouTube
did you see the hand, timex was beyond taking candy from a baby
yeah I was laughing and agreeing with timex. #loljamiegoldaments
yes, and i get corrected very often by better players, and I appreciate their time.
That would be a compliment, since I spent months going over hand histories and ghosting with you, but I shoulda went over how to read graphs.
I didn't actually mean you would be a Jedi, I meant you will be a good poker player...this game will click for you, and you will draw on all your past railing and fan experience and it will help you do well.
According to many MMA wannabes yes...but not according to Bruce Lee
Then you'll believe me when I say its not different than normal speed poker.
Anyways your post would make more sense if you didn't just finish pleading with me to spend time coaching your game 3 days or so ago. ^-^