Blind vs Blind

djgolfcandjgolfcan
in MTT Strategy
PokerStars Hand #82464026488: Tournament #579198626, $4.10+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2012/06/25 21:30:30 ET
Table '579198626 10' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: BerzayBalls (15461 in chips)
Seat 3: Grasquet (16437 in chips)
Seat 4: SebasV10 (12385 in chips)
Seat 5: JCon111 (5189 in chips)
Seat 7: BankMamy (33381 in chips)
Seat 8: djgolfcan (36016 in chips)
BerzayBalls: posts the ante 100
Grasquet: posts the ante 100
SebasV10: posts the ante 100
JCon111: posts the ante 100
BankMamy: posts the ante 100
djgolfcan: posts the ante 100
djgolfcan: posts small blind 500
BerzayBalls: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to djgolfcan [Xd Xs]
Grasquet: folds
SebasV10: folds
JCon111: folds
BankMamy: folds
djgolfcan: raises 1000 to 2000
BerzayBalls: raises 13361 to 15361 and is all-in
djgolfcan: ??

This is the 15min blind level 180man SNGs.

What is his shoving range ? What's my calling range ?
Some backgroung. Seems like a solid player, has just under chip average.
«1

Comments

  • MiloMilo
    You might be asking the wrong question, especially since you raised initially. What does he think of you? Has anything about your play given him cause to think you may be acting "non-standard"? If you have a HUD, you probably have enough stat info. to make an educated guess on his play, but it's what he thinks of your play that brought on the raise.





    Unless his stats are like mine in which case . . . CALL.
  • UnknownUnknown
    This will be another post someone else with a good eye for poker math will have to verify if I'm correct here

    Once you min raise and get shoved on the hand is essentially the same as a situation in which the blinds are 1k/2k antes 100, and you are the BB and the SB has pushed on you. Take a second to understand that you'll be able to tell me if I'm correct or not.

    I set that situation up here (the stacks that folded don't matter so I made them 2,000 each)

    HoldemResources.net: Beta ICM Nash Calculator


    Now you can play with the range of your villain and see what you should be calling his shove with. So for the calculator link the setup is different, you are BB and villain is SB but the shove math is the same.

    If he shoves AX+, most broadways and all pairs, you should call about A7o+, A4s+, 22+, QJs, KTs, KQo. I'd say thats pretty close for a player that has only played 152 games (opr). But play with it so you know how to adjust it.

    Milo is correct about your image, if you have been min/folding here and there even rec players loosen up pretty quick.

    However, there may be better plays than min folding your entire range
  • UnknownUnknown
    Milo wrote: »
    You might be asking the wrong question, especially since you raised initially. What does he think of you? Has anything about your play given him cause to think you may be acting "non-standard"? If you have a HUD, you probably have enough stat info. to make an educated guess on his play, but it's what he thinks of your play that brought on the raise.





    Unless his stats are like mine in which case . . . CALL.


    lol WAT


    Joda-

    Villian that has less than 15 bb w/antes , we are shoving or folding on villain BvB almost always, are we not?
  • Richard~Richard~
    I mean, we need to have a reason to minraise here in the first place. First we need to expect him to never flat pre or fold way too many flops, second we need to expect him to fold a decent %. This shouldn't be a question of your calling range cause minraising here should more or less only be done with hands you want action with and garbage your trying to steal with.

    Any J10 K9 type hand should be openshoved by us just to avoid this. Anything other than shoving or folding the small blind here needs to be done with a plan so that when villain shoves our calling range is all the good hands we're minraising for action and our folding range is all the bad hands we were trying to bluff through

    and darb your a bit wrong, with blinds 1k/2k if we're in the BB we'd expect a standard villain to shove wider than he would reship our minraise. Just cause villain have fold equity doesn't mean it's good to shove 100% to our minraise, especially not if he understands that we should be polarizing it

    Edit: depending on villain we use the term polarizing loosely, we can very well put any ace and K10 in our valueraising range if we think villain is loose enough
  • UnknownUnknown
    costanza wrote: »

    Joda-

    Villian that has less than 15 bb w/antes , we are shoving or folding on villain BvB almost always, are we not?
    Not always because we'll min raise our monsters vs. non regs and shove the weaker parts like rich is saying above. We can also limp vs some players with some hands.
    I mean, we need to have a reason to minraise here in the first place. First we need to expect him to never flat pre or fold way too many flops, second we need to expect him to fold a decent %. This shouldn't be a question of your calling range cause minraising here should more or less only be done with hands you want action with and garbage your trying to steal with.

    Any J10 K9 type hand should be openshoved by us just to avoid this. Anything other than shoving or folding the small blind here needs to be done with a plan so that when villain shoves our calling range is all the good hands we're minraising for action and our folding range is all the bad hands we were trying to bluff through
    +1
    and darb your a bit wrong, with blinds 1k/2k if we're in the BB we'd expect a standard villain to shove wider than he would reship our minraise.
    Yes but I'm suggesting the math problem is identical, we can adjust villains reshipping range however we want.
  • reibsreibs
    great comments itt.

    I agree with most, and happy to say I would have answered much in the same way as Rich/yoda, just a little slow to the party.

    These spots are soooooo villian dependant.... Against some villians its best to just jam our entire opening range, others its best to min/call. Some of the tightest fish we can min/fold, but that sucks.... haha. And fwiw, I still disagree with the open limping thing, but if yoda says....

    My gut tells me that inexperienced weak-tight villains are not reshoving the lowest aces and unsuited broadways tho yoda.

    As an aside, holdem resources download has resteal calcs now aparently.
  • UnknownUnknown
    reibs wrote: »
    great comments itt.

    I agree with most, and happy to say I would have answered much in the same way as Rich/yoda, just a little slow to the party.
    sure you would!
    And fwiw, I still disagree with the open limping thing, but if yoda says....
    yes just villain dependent, for example, rec players limp the small blind with such a wide range that you can jam atc from the bb. Regs (playing 30-50 tables) robot/auto jam from the bb if you limp...so if they don't know you are reg or capable of trapping, then you should limp the top of your range and watch them jam ATC at you ^-^

    Also in certain spots especially at the ft vs a really weak tight BB I won't shove 73o ill just limp and stab at the pot. But this takes a fairly solid read.
    My gut tells me that inexperienced weak-tight villains are not reshoving the lowest aces and unsuited broadways tho yoda.
    Yes you are suggesting almost identically what I did. I suggested most broadway and all aces, which gives a little room for funky bluff shoves when villain shows up with j6. You could argue tighter but I don't think we need to put villain much tighter (although I think there is 12 left so we can call a little tighter because of ICM).

    Either way its best for OP to define his own villain reshove range to learn how to adjust his calling range.

    And take a note of what he shows up with!!!
    As an aside, holdem resources download has resteal calcs now aparently.
    Yes I'm still afraid to check that all out but will soon.
  • UnknownUnknown
    darbday wrote: »
    Not always because we'll min raise our monsters vs. non regs and shove the weaker parts like rich is saying above. We can also limp vs some players with some hands.

    +1

    Yes but I'm suggesting the math problem is identical, we can adjust villains reshipping range however we want.

    i like limp folding alot more then raise/folding here given stack sizes

    jamming/folding>limp>raise/fold

    as for range, id prolly be calling any ace, any par, suited broadway and most suited kings


    dj id love to see what hand u had
  • djgolfcandjgolfcan
    Honestly, the cards don't matter, that's why I posted this hand.

    FWIW, I had J-J and villain shoved J-4s - I called his shove and won the hand. The hand played out exactly as I wanted as I was never min raise / folding Jacks to the Big Blind. Just trying to get him to commit, thinking that I was just another min raising, steal attempt.

    Just curious as to how others approach the BvsB scenario. Great discussion though. Keep it going.
  • UnknownUnknown
    ah, ok.. and actually yes the hand does matter in this case, alot.

    you were raising to induce.

    wp.
  • UnknownUnknown
    reibs wrote: »
    I still disagree with the open limping thing,
    I should mention many different pros limp and go, if its not in your skill set then you're losing ev+ imo, youll come across a vid with a good pro I'm sure...its all about who you use it against, disagree with that if anything, but not with the technique (btw thats a bruce leeism).
    but if yoda says....
    don't roll your eyes at me though :mad:





    reibs wrote:
    My gut tells me that inexperienced weak-tight villains are not reshoving the lowest aces and unsuited broadways tho yoda.
    darbday wrote: »
    ...which gives a little room for funky bluff shoves when villain shows up with j6.

    djgolfcan wrote: »
    FWIW, I had J-J and villain shoved J-4s
    We shouldn't really be using our gut ;) but where I think you went wrong here is you assumed villain is weak tight, we have no info to suggest that (dj even suggested he's strong).





    costanza wrote: »
    i like limp folding alot more then raise/folding here given stack sizes
    you can't say that unless you know what part of your range you have...do you prefer limp folding aces here? And limp folding is not often a good idea.
    jamming/folding>limp>raise/fold
    again this is jibberish until you say what parts of your range you are jamming, folding, etc. You can't look at stacks and say this, you need to talk about hands as well as actions.
    as for range, id prolly be calling any ace, any par, suited broadway and most suited kings
    Here you are listing random hands. Instead of naming hands you will call, name the hands you think villain shoves and then call with whatever hands nash says to. This is a dramatic difference!

    dj id love to see what hand u had
    costanza wrote: »
    ah, ok.. and actually yes the hand does matter in this case, alot.
    DJ is correct the hand doesn't matter, its what you would do with each part of your range that matters.

    Why do we care if DJ had Aces (then he should call) or 62o (then we should fold)?


    you were raising to induce.
    This can be a misconception too. Raising to induce means that the bb will reshove a wider range than if we just shoved instead of min raising. A lot of people min raise their monsters to 'induce' but they aren't inducing anything. To induce someone I think we need a read that we tricked them into playing back lighter. Thats a subtle difference but I think its important. I'm kinda saying inducing can't be done in a vaccuum and needs a metagame type setup.

    djgolfcan wrote: »
    Honestly, the cards don't matter, that's why I posted this hand.
    Acutally I pm'd dj and told him to lie about what hand he had and then told him to never tell anyone the truth or that i pm'd him. he actually had k3o and he folded.
  • UnknownUnknown
    **edited**
  • UnknownUnknown
    darbday wrote: »

    you can't say that unless you know what part of your range you have...do you prefer limp folding aces here? And limp folding is not often a good idea.

    limp folding or limp calling is fine if you can outplay villian post, especially BvB with a wide variety of hands/ranges. A beast I have been working with since my last BvB thread has helped me play post flop alot better, also, alot of the live cash game books ive been reading lately have me feeling way better about playing post flop and limping. (shocker, i know)

    again this is jibberish until you say what parts of your range you are jamming, folding, etc. You can't look at stacks and say this, you need to talk about hands as well as actions.

    I can rattle off all sorts of hands/ranges but its all circumstantial. In pure HH format, everything is way to broad to even begin to start breaking down specific hands and ranges. broad questions will get broad answers.
    Here you are listing random hands. Instead of naming hands you will call, name the hands you think villain shoves and then call with whatever hands nash says to. This is a dramatic difference!

    Im listing random hands because the hand is random.

    DJ is correct the hand doesn't matter, its what you would do with each part of your range that matters.

    Why do we care if DJ had Aces (then he should call) or 62o (then we should fold)?

    wtf do u want me to say? we shove wider and call tighter, so our min raise / call jam range is tight, like fucking 17.9% maybe less, and our shove range is like 32% on villian? is this what u want to hear?

    This can be a misconception too. Raising to induce means that the bb will reshove a wider range than if we just shoved instead of min raising. A lot of people min raise their monsters to 'induce' but they aren't inducing anything. To induce someone I think we need a read that we tricked them into playing back lighter. Thats a subtle difference but I think its important. I'm kinda saying inducing can't be done in a vaccuum and needs a metagame type setup.

    I agree metagaming is involved in being able to induce

    Acutally I pm'd dj and told him to lie about what hand he had and then told him to never tell anyone the truth or that i pm'd him. he actually had k3o and he folded.

    idk wtf to even think about this statement, if u are levelling me about levelling me, im not going to be impressed.. I dont see what purpose at all that has to do with anything except for fucking with me
  • reibsreibs
    darbday wrote: »
    I should mention many different pros limp and go, if its not in your skill set then you're losing ev+ imo, youll come across a vid with a good pro I'm sure...its all about who you use it against, disagree with that if anything, but not with the technique (btw thats a bruce leeism).

    Could very well be losing +ev, but it feels awkward as hell to not have initiative post oop. Will think about it though.
    darbday wrote: »
    don't roll your eyes at me though :mad:

    No No, no eyes were rolling here.... I was surius.

    darbday wrote: »
    We shouldn't really be using our gut ;) but where I think you went wrong here is you assumed villain is weak tight, we have no info to suggest that (dj even suggested he's strong).

    Maybe my wording was wrong, but aren't we making "gut" decisions constantly in this game, based on the information we have, and some big assumptions?

    All that OP said about villain is "Seems like a solid player, has just under chip average." While this may give you the idea that villain is a good player, the fact that hes only played 150 games on this account makes a stronger case for the opposite imo. We really don't know what gives dj the idea that hes "strong." Strong could just be that he has not seen any light shoves for all we know?

    The fact that villain showed up with J4s this time doesn't really mean that its in his shoving range. And I think thats what we were both alluding to earlier... It is most likely just a one-off shove where villain just decided to go with it for whatever reason. So yea, I can see why you add in the few extra aces and broadways.... good call.

    All that said, I think the most important of all in this thread is that you TAKE A NOTE! .... Something I am slowly getting better at.
  • UnknownUnknown
    costanza wrote: »
    I can rattle off all sorts of hands/ranges but its all circumstantial. In pure HH format, everything is way to broad to even begin to start breaking down specific hands and ranges. broad questions will get broad answers.
    A broad answer is correct! That is my only point.

    Therefore Dj's hand doesn't actually matter because we already know what will do with any hand we get dealt.

    A lot of times problems like these seems big and tough but when you tackle them you realize they are small. In this example we should be shoving our weak +ev hands like 98s and min raise/calling our top range like JJ. Vs this villain we will not limp or min raise/fold. That broad answer that tells us how to deal with the entire deck!

    However with the same stack sizes and a different opponent we may play each part of our ranges completely different.


    Im listing random hands because the hand is random.
    It's not random, its a very specific example we can give a specific answer too. But we don't talk about a specific hand, we talk about what we would do with each part of our range. I am just saying instead of suggesting we do 'this' action.......we should say we do this (action) with (this part of our range)...... make sure we talk about each part of the ranges we can be dealt. That is why DJ said the actual hand doesn't matter.
  • UnknownUnknown
    reibs wrote: »
    Could very well be losing +ev, but it feels awkward as hell to not have initiative post oop. Will think about it though.
    Some people peel atc pre flop, but play very tight post flop. So with 12 bbs (antes in play) and you have 72o, limping and stabbing at K23 flop will be very successful. I'd shove 72s likely, but not put my stack in with 72o when villain likely has the auto fold button on. This is a specific read though, against mostly weak tight players. If the flop come JTQ with 2 clubs I may not donk bet though, it depends on the texture.

    Also find a multi tabling good winning reg that doesn't know you, and limp the small blind and see if he doesn't shove any two cards. I can't do it to many of the them anymore, but if they don't know you are capable you will induce a shove everytime. Because if a rec player limps bvb with approx 12 bbs its profitable to shove ATC, so they auto shove.

    Also sometimes players are used to me min raise opening ATC as an aggressive player so I get a lot of respect from good regs when I limp stab, just pretend you have aces and you are trapping. But thats my image though, you can limp and go very very weak players, and limp/trap aggressive good regs.



    Maybe my wording was wrong, but aren't we making "gut" decisions constantly in this game, based on the information we have, and some big assumptions?
    No this is a misconception, you are pointing to magic, the real game of poker is math based decisions that can be represented by a computer. ^-^

    As for the definitions here we are saying 'assumption' has no facts to back it up, where as a profitable adjustment should be based on a detail and not an assumption. (I'm not trying to change the definition but rather clarify what I mean by the words I'm using).

    All that OP said about villain is "Seems like a solid player, has just under chip average." While this may give you the idea that villain is a good player, the fact that hes only played 150 games on this account makes a stronger case for the opposite imo. We really don't know what gives dj the idea that hes "strong." Strong could just be that he has not seen any light shoves for all we know?
    Well we would have to suggest in our answer we think op's read is wrong. But nonetheless we can suggest the villain is weak, but we cannot suggest he is tight. We have no info based on that, so we cannot profitably adjust towards that assumption.
    The fact that villain showed up with J4s this time doesn't really mean that its in his shoving range. And I think thats what we were both alluding to earlier... It is most likely just a one-off shove where villain just decided to go with it for whatever reason. So yea, I can see why you add in the few extra aces and broadways.... good call.
    Agreed
    All that said, I think the most important of all in this thread is that you TAKE A NOTE! .... Something I am slowly getting better at.
    Yes taking note here is crucial, now we know we can induce villain so we can min/call hands like 22 and A2s, maybe KQs. We also know we have to shove hands like T9s and KTo.

    We don't know villain will act this way in the future in this game but its likely if we meet him again he will shove J4s bvb over our min raise. Either way for this game as well it is a valuable note.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    darbday wrote: »
    No this is a misconception, you are pointing to magic, the real game of poker is math based decisions that can be represented by a computer. ^-^
    Really, really like your in depth analysis and discussion points Darb but on this point you are just plain wrong. It only works if the other players are also just using math to make their decisions. Obviously math is an important part but certainly not the be all and end all... I know you think you can always assign a range to any player in any situation but it just doesn't work that way, especially live.....
    I think when others refer to "gut feel" it does have a valid place in poker decisions... again, especially live... it is not magic but rather intuition and psychology...
  • UnknownUnknown
    compuease wrote: »
    Really, really like your in depth analysis and discussion points Darb but on this point you are just plain wrong. It only works if the other players are also just using math to make their decisions. Obviously math is an important part but certainly not the be all and end all... I know you think you can always assign a range to any player in any situation but it just doesn't work that way, especially live.....
    I think when others refer to "gut feel" it does have a valid place in poker decisions... again, especially live... it is not magic but rather intuition and psychology...
    before I explain I'm just gonna say you absolutely are incorrect and let that sit for a bit, (in case others want to disagree to) ^-^
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    darbday wrote: »
    before I explain I'm just gonna say you absolutely are incorrect and let that sit for a bit, (in case others want to disagree to) ^-^

    And you are the authority..... why? Live experience?
  • MiloMilo
    I may not know much about poker, but I KNOW that you fundamentally CANNOT base any tactical decision on one facet to the exclusion of all others. You have to use EVERY piece of information available to come to a decision, even if that decision is ultimately to do that which the information tells you is wrong. Like the man said . . . sometimes you have to do the wrong thing for the right reasons.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Poker is a math game but it isn't everything, online or live.

    Ive taken an extreme love/interest in teh live pokerz of late and have been reading alot about table dynamics, categorizing villians, mental notes, multi way pots, and perceived image.

    All of these things apply to online poker as well, except for the fact that math and nash simply cannot factor these things into play.

    Yes im talking live cash, but it carries over into live mtt's as well.

    When we sit at our computers and fire up a big long session, and go through the monotonous task of clicking buttons and making purely math based decisions all day, we stop becoming poker players. We become robots.
  • MiloMilo
    Are you saying darb is a bot? It would explain a lot . . .
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Milo wrote: »
    Are you saying darb is a bot? It would explain a lot . . .

    well 99% bot anyways... ;)
  • UnknownUnknown
    e579.jpg
  • UnknownUnknown
    FuckThisThreadImOuttaHere.jpg
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Sacrilege I tell you, sacrilege...
  • UnknownUnknown
    compuease wrote: »
    And you are the authority..... why?
    On force related topics you mean?


    Yoda - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

    Jedi High Council - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

    CouncilPicWalp1024.jpg
  • UnknownUnknown
    compuease wrote: »
    I know you think you can always assign a range to any player in any situation but it just doesn't work that way, especially live.....
    This shows a slight a slight misunderstanding in what it means to assign an opponent range imo. We can always assign a range, whether live or online. If we can't define the range well then we'll assign a wide range because we can't narrow it. I'm sure you mostly understand how that all works, but your wording is suspect.
    I think when others refer to "gut feel" it does have a valid place in poker decisions... again, especially live...
    no you cannot win any game based on gut decision. We don't have that in real life, thats a jedi thing. We have not proved that scientifically, yet poker players feel they can do it.

    You might have felt you did it or someone else did it but the sample size is suspect. Few player ever have a clue whether their 'gut' is right or not compared to a 3,000 event sample. And I can assure you, they aren't winning that bet.

    What you are suggesting is that given the video picture identifying game that the Jedi council tested Anakin with, some poker players would consistently score higher because of gut instinct.
    it is not magic but rather intuition and psychology...
    Now the word intuition can run this discussion into trouble because it can be greyed but I can explain using psychology....

    the psychological aspects translate to math, even a computer can read facial expressions etc. You might say this guy is tilted I can tell, but so could a computer, it could tell by the math, I under poker is a psyche game but none of that comes from 'feelings'.

    Its not important that you prove me wrong I think, its important to know that the people who know this make money off the people that don't. And once you fully accept that you can't Jedi anything in poker, then you can zero in on the proper parts of the strategy....of course I don't have the record to support that, but I'm willing to throw it out there.


    I think its very important at least until the very champion levels of this sport to understand and agree with my view.
  • UnknownUnknown
    Lol
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    I can't be bothered to type that much to argue, would do it live but not on an internet forum, even here... I interpret your range of understanding as being very narrow, in that, in your mind you have a clear understanding of your beliefs but are not very open to others thoughts. In short you seem to be guilty of what you think of others...
    Now I may be way off base as analytic physcology is very difficult to do even in person but more power to you if this is a level..


    I think in the most part we are arguing apples and oranges... I never want to be that predictable...
Sign In or Register to comment.
HomeDiscussionsToggle Dark Mode