I feel like I should read up on this a bit so I can crush my SnG's again. Anyone here have a good chart to share? like tony guarerra's chart or something else covering 5-18 BB pushes
well, technically all pokerpwnage members already have permission to use that, thanks a lot
you can just imagine the work he and his girlfriend put into creating that
haha yeah alot of work went into it
tbh after staring at it for hours, ive found some iffy spots (imo) but idk how to do the math so i dont even know how to point it out or like even talk about it without looking retarded
He's cool with it, doesn't want his 3bet chart sent around though, wasn't done with them. I just noticed the new nash calc download does the 3bet shoving :-X
you never answer me but Ill try once more to ask you a question. When you say your opinion, what are you basing it on? Do you just say whoa thats weird, or do you have a system, or does it not match your shove charts? If you give an example then someone could explain it (there are a few very small mistakes).
Those shove charts are the math, Evelyn used the nash calculator to make them.
If you have questions Rich, on the sheets post them because Ive seen all his vids a few times (you have too if irc and Ive also had 2 privates with Tony.
You've had two private coaching sessions with Tony? I would credit his math-based books and podcasts as being the most helpful continuing education for me. Didn't he retire from playing (1/2 live)?
you never answer me but Ill try once more to ask you a question. When you say your opinion, what are you basing it on? Do you just say whoa thats weird, or do you have a system, or does it not match your shove charts? If you give an example then someone could explain it (there are a few very small mistakes).
.
I think overall what messed me up was you telling me towards the end of our sessions that waiting to hit the blinds was more +EV then jamming in a "meh" spot
so i.e , shove chart says shoving any pair up to like 17 beibers in MP-LP is +EV and that just boggles my mind
I honestly cant count the number of times i would zip in 22-77 in those spots and get pwned when i get looked up with Q7o+ and shit. very tilting
tough to word, but a bunch of times ive shipped in what i THOUGHT was +EV spots only to realize that maybe it isnt, and thats why ive stopped playing turbo's altogether... I thought maybe i was to tight (tough to imagine considering i shove wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide , but now i just think maybe the chart is flawed a lil)
either that, or im doom switched in key spots and am running bad, but to run that bad for that long in turbo's is like.. not possible, hence i only play reg and deep structures now
You've had two private coaching sessions with Tony Guerrera? I would credit his math-based books and podcasts as being the most helpful continuing education for me. Didn't he retire from playing (1/2 live)?
yup first was early on when I started 2nd wasn't not so long ago, within a year I guess. We had an interesting conversation about nash and shoving last time, I wish I could talk to guys like that for like 15 hours at a time. Killer poker by the numbers is one of the most unreal books out there, took me like 5 reads. I read it 4 or 5 pages at a time driving truck underground and then an hour long haul to think about out. He said he was having troubles finishing his parts for 'Tournament poker end game', I was really looking forward to it. He was still playing some I think but did get a job programming slots or video poker or something.
I think overall what messed me up was you telling me towards the end of our sessions that waiting to hit the blinds was more +EV then jamming in a "meh" spot
so i.e , shove chart says shoving any pair up to like 17 beibers in MP-LP is +EV and that just boggles my mind
the example you gave here isn't an example of your first paragraph. I was widening my utg range from what the nash charts said, some winning players still do this, many actually but you can just go with nash, the 2nd time I talked to Tony he said he used to widen but he doesn't anymore.
tough to word, but a bunch of times ive shipped in what i THOUGHT was +EV spots only to realize that maybe it isnt,
How did you realize it wasn't +ev, because you lost the hand? If its nash its gold and you already know, if its because later you got smarter or someone told you its wrong, then you learned-thats win/win.
Also forgot to mention that I'm of the thought these days that if you only shove nash in the 180s and don't adjust you can't beat the game, I'm curious about that
that last point is interesting as hell, id like to hear more about that.
RE: me specifically, I could probably dig thru my HUD and find some hands that are nash/in the shove chart that I think are wack but shoved anyways because it said to, id love to hear your thoughts on them.
that last point is interesting as hell, id like to hear more about that.
RE: me specifically, I could probably dig thru my HUD and find some hands that are nash/in the shove chart that I think are wack but shoved anyways because it said to, id love to hear your thoughts on them.
Not called your hud....dig through your database.
bring them up if the nash charts say its a shove I'm just going to tell you its a shove because the nash calculator said so
bring them up if the nash charts say its a shove I'm just going to tell you its a shove because the nash calculator said so
ive been importing hands and looking thru my pt4 for a long time now, this was harder to find then i thought lol, ill find somethin.
ya i know u will, but, maybe i can find hand or 2 that are close as hell and i can refine my ranges and prove that there r some really freaking close spots in that shove chart
ive been importing hands and looking thru my pt4 for a long time now, this was harder to find then i thought lol, ill find somethin.
ya i know u will, but, maybe i can find hand or 2 that are close as hell and i can refine my ranges and prove that there r some really freaking close spots in that shove chart
if they are spots you are talking about where the shove charts say to push why don't you make up an example from the charts?
if they are spots you are talking about where the shove charts say to push why don't you make up an example from the charts?
I suppose that's easier, i was gonna find a specific example so u could see stack sizes, etc and be like "ya shit. that is close" , but ill make one up, i got a lil time before bed
do you ever throw in flat out bottom of range bluffs to mess with the stats they have of you or is that so -ev it isn't worth it.
good discussion
I never just shove nash, pretty much nobody I play calls light enough. So generally it will always be looser, and really loose vs some. And yes I always tailor the ranges as much as possible.
do you ever throw in flat out bottom of range bluffs to mess with the stats they have of you or is that so -ev it isn't worth it.
I think you mean hands that are outside the bottom of my range, hands that are more towards the bottom of the deck (or do you mean flat). But I will shove the bottom of my range always (by definition since its my range). I will consider, but very seldom, doing something for what I think you mean is metagame but only vs very few players. Most players are either too bad too notice, or not able to understand what to do vs my extra wide shove, or they play too many tables to care to adjust (the best regs don't really care cause they play 30+ tables.
Also keep in mind if they think you shove wider, then eventually you'll just have to tighten up vs them anyways.
The point is kinda that you want them to think you are as tight as possible so you can shove as wide as possible. There are a couple player who think I'm so loose I can just shove nash and they will exploit themselves and call way looser then nash tells them.
I think you mean hands that are outside the bottom of my range, hands that are more towards the bottom of the deck (or do you mean flat).
this. thanks mate, it seems so obvious.......after you've said it.
Now we need to get a thread on about calling shoves. That seems to be where the chips are waiting to be stacked. if only I could know when to call off with J7o...
yup, 10bbs antes bvb your in bb...sb is a good winning reg in a turbo snap call. ^-^
Anyways, the nash ranges given also have equilibrium calling ranges. But calling is different because you need to know what the shover's range is. You can only really do that when you understand shoving well, you have to understand what good players shove and what bad players shove and what category they are. But also some good winning players don't shove too wide, and some loosing players shove loose.
Its important then to take notes and what you really are looking for are the weakest hands you can find them shoving. If nash says shove 44+ and the player shoves 22 then you can feel like they shove wider than nash and you should be able to call with at least the nash calling range, that sort of thing.
Another thing I catch good regs on is when they min raise qq with 12 bbs instead of shoving. I take a notes and now their range is capped because I'm confident when they shove they don't have QQ KK or AA in their range and I can call lighter.
I forgot to say about calling I think I'm one of the strongest 180 man callers in the game. I would love for someone to challenge me on it because if they proved me wrong then I would learn.
I'd be interested in getting push bot charts and 3 betting charts too.
I think it's a weak part of my game and one of the reasons I play cash games.
push bot (I think thats a name for a certain chart) would be better than tony's because tonys require a lot of explanation. 3bet shove charts are generally useless because they are too complex.
3bet shoving has more variables because opponents can min, 2.2, 2.5, 3x etc. now they have an opening range and out of that opening range our 3bet shove range will depend on their calling range.
Ive found a way to approximate this decently I think though. Imagine a person just shoved instead of min raised. Whichever hands we would call with we should 3bet shove vs the same range if he just opens...if we think they will fold sometimes then we should shove slightly wider. The hands we should be are going to be closer to the nash ranges.
Its important though you target good regs, regs that min raise/call most of their hands. Bad players will shove their middle hands and 3bet call qq+ only. So if a player 3x's with antes hes not a target because raise folders don't 3x they 2.5-min raise. So we will take our villains range from his position and apply that % to a shove range and respond accordingly.
An example is a 30bbs Omgclaydoll min raise opens (with antes) in the cu with a 17bbs bu, 17bbs sb, and a 3bb BB. His min raise call the short bb and fold to the bu and sb range is huge. You would imagine his shove range from the cu, or use his cu steal stats and re shove a slightly wider range than you would call. This works too because people behind over call way tighter than they should (in this example the BB is likely to fold sometimes).
So it becomes a function of understand shoving vs calling well.
As an aside in that spot, if its me on the button vs omgcd then I won't reshove a very extended value range because he'll call me with his entire shoving range like kts etc. So I will tighten up because its likely he sees my when reviewing students and horses.
If I'm in the cu in this spot and a decent re-stealer is on the button I'll just tighten up my min raise range and keep my calling range wide and gain that way.
ok, I came up with an example, but then as I was doing it, the example turned more into a question. this is a standard situation that happens to me.
i feel like we have covered this before, but I may have forgotten, not fully understood, or im just retarded, so please excuse me Joda B.
RE: this shove chart, it says we can "open shove" with 15bb (with antes) 22+, A5s+ ATo+, etc, etc,
So as I was coming across an example to give, I realized that instead of being confused about the math on shoving these hands on the chart , I realized that I forgot how to play them. While yes, its a shove chart and its just a shove, it isnt always that way.
Until about 15bb (w antes), Im fine min-raising, so from about 14bb-18bb I feel handcuffed on shoving some hands, but then I remember our calling range is always way tighter then our shoving range... I dont feel comfortable shoving sometimes, and I dont feel comfortable min-raise/calling a shove, or even worse, min-raise/folding. makes my head hurt just thinking about it.
When it comes to turbo's (180 mans in particular) you get in these "key spots" that its like you get a green light shove and thats fist pump mash the all-in button, but then theres times that you get "amber light" spots where its like "proceed with caution!"
I know ur gonna say if its on the chart, its nash, and shove dont even think about it, but its not always that easy to pull the trigger :-[
as you can clearly see man, my turbo game is a mess, which is a shame because we were really making progress before
ok, I came up with an example, but then as I was doing it, the example turned more into a question. this is a standard situation that happens to me.
that usually means some form of learning occurred or was about to occur. Anyways, the answer is prob the difference between me and BTP, and if i understood what that was I'd be a soul crusher, but if you can find and example with an 'amber' light then I'd have an idea. And nash isn't the best way but its a good start.
If you guys are serious about the charts and want to learn more, please google them.
This should be fine B vs B in SNG's and is ideal for HUSNGS.. If you want to improve your SNG game you should buy "SNGWizard" can't tell you how much it helps!
Also forgot to mention that I'm of the thought these days that if you only shove nash in the 180s and don't adjust you can't beat the game, I'm curious about that
Nash just makes you unexplotable (Follow it 8bb or less though IMO) but it might not maximize your EV, if there was 2 people shoveing nash 100% of the time for 1million games they would break even.. This is pretty much what it means..
that last point is interesting as hell, id like to hear more about that.
RE: me specifically, I could probably dig thru my HUD and find some hands that are nash/in the shove chart that I think are wack but shoved anyways because it said to, id love to hear your thoughts on them.
this is why SNG wizard is so great, you go and plug in your HH's from your set after and see what was/wasn't a shove.
do you deviate from nash based on your reads? so wider against nits and tighter against loose players?
do you ever throw in flat out bottom of range bluffs to mess with the stats they have of you or is that so -ev it isn't worth it.
good discussion
Yes, you should be deviating from your nash chart depending on reads. if someone in only playing 1% of hands, I sure as hell hope you are shoving them a little wider, and vice-versa.
Comments
call01@hotmail.com
I'd appriciate it, I'm actually suprised I couldn't just google it :P
LMAO
you can just imagine the work he and his girlfriend put into creating that
haha yeah alot of work went into it
tbh after staring at it for hours, ive found some iffy spots (imo) but idk how to do the math so i dont even know how to point it out or like even talk about it without looking retarded
you never answer me but Ill try once more to ask you a question. When you say your opinion, what are you basing it on? Do you just say whoa thats weird, or do you have a system, or does it not match your shove charts? If you give an example then someone could explain it (there are a few very small mistakes).
Those shove charts are the math, Evelyn used the nash calculator to make them.
If you have questions Rich, on the sheets post them because Ive seen all his vids a few times (you have too if irc and Ive also had 2 privates with Tony.
I think overall what messed me up was you telling me towards the end of our sessions that waiting to hit the blinds was more +EV then jamming in a "meh" spot
so i.e , shove chart says shoving any pair up to like 17 beibers in MP-LP is +EV and that just boggles my mind
I honestly cant count the number of times i would zip in 22-77 in those spots and get pwned when i get looked up with Q7o+ and shit. very tilting
tough to word, but a bunch of times ive shipped in what i THOUGHT was +EV spots only to realize that maybe it isnt, and thats why ive stopped playing turbo's altogether... I thought maybe i was to tight (tough to imagine considering i shove wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide , but now i just think maybe the chart is flawed a lil)
either that, or im doom switched in key spots and am running bad, but to run that bad for that long in turbo's is like.. not possible, hence i only play reg and deep structures now
why should it boggle your mind though?
You're thinking about your hand vs his and the result. Tell me about your range and his range?
How did you realize it wasn't +ev, because you lost the hand? If its nash its gold and you already know, if its because later you got smarter or someone told you its wrong, then you learned-thats win/win.
everyone says they are wide and lag, I know zero lag regs and only like 4 or 5 that are wide shovers.
the chart is nash so you are saying nash is flawed.
If you shove well and spew otherwise you won't win at poker. If you tighten your shoving beyond nash you'll do even worse.
yes but does that fix it or just slow it down?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also forgot to mention that I'm of the thought these days that if you only shove nash in the 180s and don't adjust you can't beat the game, I'm curious about that
RE: me specifically, I could probably dig thru my HUD and find some hands that are nash/in the shove chart that I think are wack but shoved anyways because it said to, id love to hear your thoughts on them.
bring them up if the nash charts say its a shove I'm just going to tell you its a shove because the nash calculator said so
ive been importing hands and looking thru my pt4 for a long time now, this was harder to find then i thought lol, ill find somethin.
ya i know u will, but, maybe i can find hand or 2 that are close as hell and i can refine my ranges and prove that there r some really freaking close spots in that shove chart
I suppose that's easier, i was gonna find a specific example so u could see stack sizes, etc and be like "ya shit. that is close" , but ill make one up, i got a lil time before bed
do you deviate from nash based on your reads? so wider against nits and tighter against loose players?
do you ever throw in flat out bottom of range bluffs to mess with the stats they have of you or is that so -ev it isn't worth it.
good discussion
I think you mean hands that are outside the bottom of my range, hands that are more towards the bottom of the deck (or do you mean flat). But I will shove the bottom of my range always (by definition since its my range). I will consider, but very seldom, doing something for what I think you mean is metagame but only vs very few players. Most players are either too bad too notice, or not able to understand what to do vs my extra wide shove, or they play too many tables to care to adjust (the best regs don't really care cause they play 30+ tables.
Also keep in mind if they think you shove wider, then eventually you'll just have to tighten up vs them anyways.
The point is kinda that you want them to think you are as tight as possible so you can shove as wide as possible. There are a couple player who think I'm so loose I can just shove nash and they will exploit themselves and call way looser then nash tells them.
passed out, ill give an example a little later on when i have more time.
I think it's a weak part of my game and one of the reasons I play cash games.
this. thanks mate, it seems so obvious.......after you've said it.
Now we need to get a thread on about calling shoves. That seems to be where the chips are waiting to be stacked. if only I could know when to call off with J7o...
yup, 10bbs antes bvb your in bb...sb is a good winning reg in a turbo snap call. ^-^
Anyways, the nash ranges given also have equilibrium calling ranges. But calling is different because you need to know what the shover's range is. You can only really do that when you understand shoving well, you have to understand what good players shove and what bad players shove and what category they are. But also some good winning players don't shove too wide, and some loosing players shove loose.
Its important then to take notes and what you really are looking for are the weakest hands you can find them shoving. If nash says shove 44+ and the player shoves 22 then you can feel like they shove wider than nash and you should be able to call with at least the nash calling range, that sort of thing.
Another thing I catch good regs on is when they min raise qq with 12 bbs instead of shoving. I take a notes and now their range is capped because I'm confident when they shove they don't have QQ KK or AA in their range and I can call lighter.
push bot (I think thats a name for a certain chart) would be better than tony's because tonys require a lot of explanation. 3bet shove charts are generally useless because they are too complex.
3bet shoving has more variables because opponents can min, 2.2, 2.5, 3x etc. now they have an opening range and out of that opening range our 3bet shove range will depend on their calling range.
Ive found a way to approximate this decently I think though. Imagine a person just shoved instead of min raised. Whichever hands we would call with we should 3bet shove vs the same range if he just opens...if we think they will fold sometimes then we should shove slightly wider. The hands we should be are going to be closer to the nash ranges.
Its important though you target good regs, regs that min raise/call most of their hands. Bad players will shove their middle hands and 3bet call qq+ only. So if a player 3x's with antes hes not a target because raise folders don't 3x they 2.5-min raise. So we will take our villains range from his position and apply that % to a shove range and respond accordingly.
An example is a 30bbs Omgclaydoll min raise opens (with antes) in the cu with a 17bbs bu, 17bbs sb, and a 3bb BB. His min raise call the short bb and fold to the bu and sb range is huge. You would imagine his shove range from the cu, or use his cu steal stats and re shove a slightly wider range than you would call. This works too because people behind over call way tighter than they should (in this example the BB is likely to fold sometimes).
So it becomes a function of understand shoving vs calling well.
As an aside in that spot, if its me on the button vs omgcd then I won't reshove a very extended value range because he'll call me with his entire shoving range like kts etc. So I will tighten up because its likely he sees my when reviewing students and horses.
If I'm in the cu in this spot and a decent re-stealer is on the button I'll just tighten up my min raise range and keep my calling range wide and gain that way.
i feel like we have covered this before, but I may have forgotten, not fully understood, or im just retarded, so please excuse me Joda B.
RE: this shove chart, it says we can "open shove" with 15bb (with antes) 22+, A5s+ ATo+, etc, etc,
So as I was coming across an example to give, I realized that instead of being confused about the math on shoving these hands on the chart , I realized that I forgot how to play them. While yes, its a shove chart and its just a shove, it isnt always that way.
Until about 15bb (w antes), Im fine min-raising, so from about 14bb-18bb I feel handcuffed on shoving some hands, but then I remember our calling range is always way tighter then our shoving range... I dont feel comfortable shoving sometimes, and I dont feel comfortable min-raise/calling a shove, or even worse, min-raise/folding. makes my head hurt just thinking about it.
When it comes to turbo's (180 mans in particular) you get in these "key spots" that its like you get a green light shove and thats fist pump mash the all-in button, but then theres times that you get "amber light" spots where its like "proceed with caution!"
I know ur gonna say if its on the chart, its nash, and shove dont even think about it, but its not always that easy to pull the trigger :-[
as you can clearly see man, my turbo game is a mess, which is a shame because we were really making progress before
le sigh
Nash can be found here (only use this 8BB and less) - please read up apon it before using it as well...
HoldemResources - HeadsUp Push/Fold Equilibrium
Chubukov Chart (Sorry cant link it for some reason)
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb343/bunzablood/S-C.jpg?t=1311728672
If you guys are serious about the charts and want to learn more, please google them.
This should be fine B vs B in SNG's and is ideal for HUSNGS.. If you want to improve your SNG game you should buy "SNGWizard" can't tell you how much it helps!
Edit: Quoted some of the posts in this thread
Nash just makes you unexplotable (Follow it 8bb or less though IMO) but it might not maximize your EV, if there was 2 people shoveing nash 100% of the time for 1million games they would break even.. This is pretty much what it means..
this is why SNG wizard is so great, you go and plug in your HH's from your set after and see what was/wasn't a shove.
Yes, you should be deviating from your nash chart depending on reads. if someone in only playing 1% of hands, I sure as hell hope you are shoving them a little wider, and vice-versa.
- Agreed with what darbday said as well..