Live 1/2 NL
I am in the BB with $375 in front of me with Ks Qd
2 limpers, then a raise from the big stack at table to $15
button calls, I call, UTG calls, rest fold
pot is $64
Flop is Kc Qh Js
I check. UTG checks, big stack bets $60, button folds, I call and UTG calls
pot is now $244
Some background. UTG is a nit after the flop. He won't play unless he has the nuts. I doubled though him once, I hit a straight on the turn and he couldn't fold his trips.
Big stack has played very solid and I have not seen him play any trash hands.
Turn is a 3d -
I check
UTG bets $60
Big Stack tanks and ends up just calling. Pot is now $364 and I have $300 behind.
Me : ?? What do you guys think I should have done ?
2 limpers, then a raise from the big stack at table to $15
button calls, I call, UTG calls, rest fold
pot is $64
Flop is Kc Qh Js
I check. UTG checks, big stack bets $60, button folds, I call and UTG calls
pot is now $244
Some background. UTG is a nit after the flop. He won't play unless he has the nuts. I doubled though him once, I hit a straight on the turn and he couldn't fold his trips.
Big stack has played very solid and I have not seen him play any trash hands.
Turn is a 3d -
I check
UTG bets $60
Big Stack tanks and ends up just calling. Pot is now $364 and I have $300 behind.
Me : ?? What do you guys think I should have done ?
Comments
Call turn.
You said UTG is a nit after the flop, what is his range UTG preflop? No way I am ever folding for 60 into 364 with top 2 in this spot redrawing to the nuts even if it is a donk bet from a nit.
Raising is terrible here.
We are ahead of the big stack a high % of the time. Neither should ever have a set, and only A10 and 109 beats us. The turn utg bet is so small....why would he bet so small with the nuts. Unless there's history that he has this tendency....raising seems like the standard play, cause there's a lot of hands we beat that will/could call. Eg. AK, KJ, K10, QJ, Q10, AQ...
if the utg is a nit like op says then most of the hands you listed above arent in his betting range
Like in the OP, we say that utg is a nit post flop, but how is he preflop. What hands does he play? How many hands does he play? Does he always call a raise after limping in? It makes a huge difference. We can have the laggest preflop player, and nittest postflop player. Or is he a nit pre and post flop.
Also, there's different variations of nits. We shouldn't classify all nits to be one of the same.
For this hand, we should think about things like:
- Does UTG ever limp-call preflop with A10? 109? AK? AQ? KQ? KJ? K10? Q10? QJ? (especially the suited cases). Does he even limp some of those hands to begin with? Wouldn't he raise?
- If he has a straight, why would he bet so small on the turn? If he short stacked...why doesn't he shove the flop?
I think it's a huge mistake to classify a player as a nit, and total ignore the situation. I think it's just much more likely that UTG has a pair+combo type hand than one of the two straights.
In addition, unless an A/J/10/9 comes on the river, I don't think you can fold to most bets on the river.
This depends on sizing/evaluating river action, but is the best answer ITT by far for live 1/2.
Please factor in that nits overvalue what they think are made hands post flop. I certainly put AT in his range, but I am paying to evaluate the river in this spot all day long.
I was 100% certain that I was behind and didn't want to put another $60 in the pot to draw to six outs, at best.
On show down, big stack showed AK - UTG had 9-T for the flopped straight.
Oh, and the river card................ was a King. FML.
now you're just trying to piss cashgame players off
results oriented poker itt
I can't ever fold that spot given that you have 2 players who will potentially pay you off. UTG donk bet is typical nit trying to milk out the money for his cable bill, but I am highly doubtful he is folding the river.
What was river action?
BTW you are getting 60:364 = 16% on a call with 3-4 outs = 6-8% with implied odds on 2 players. I can never fold there.
PS: it's 4 outs at best.
Especially since he bet. You told me last time he flopped a set, and he let you get there.
Shipping is dumb as you have no fold equity, nit probably isn't folding, and has decent amount of outs against you even if you're ahead, and you want more money in the pot if you do draw out.
I don't see how you're possibly folding here. If he shipped it, that's a different story.
Nit stack had about $800 in front of him. Big Stack - $1200
Why... oh, I see. Yeah, 4 outs. Oops. I still say it's a call with all things considered.
Not to nitpick
IMO, I want to keep this pot small. Range of hands I see villains having here:
AA (IMO, this hand is unlikely to continue the turn given scary board, so discounted slightly)
KK (discounted a bunch given the board and our hand)
QQ (discounted a bunch given the board and our hand)
AK (IMO, this hand is unlikely to continue the turn given scary board, so discounted slightly)
AQ (IMO, this hand may cbet the flop and likely check the turn. The turn bet discounts this hand a fair amount)
A10 - likely - we have the nuts but the board hits a lot of opponents range. I'd be betting for value
JJ - likely - I bet for value and to protect. The week bet seems like a small value bet from scared money
KJ - somewhat likely for a calling hand pre. Much like you, doesn't want to make a big pot with such a scary board and trying to keep pot small'ish
k10 - if this hand is betting, they are likely blocker betting and hoping everyone will call and they won't get bet off their nut draw.
q10 - see K10
J10 - see K10 - but discounted slightly more
109 - see A10. You have the second nuts bet for value
With the awkward stack size, I flat here and likely flat small'ish bet on a river brick and would likely tank fold to a large river bet, especially if called a head of me. If the river is an A, J, 10, or 9 I am folding to pretty much any bet.