"Hiring" a dealer for our home game - can it be done legally?
I don't expect there are any lawyers on this site but I have a question regarding our weekly home game. We started a .50/1.00 cash game a few weeks ago and it has been highly successful, all of the players have been very friendly and most importantly they've all respected the place.
The biggest issue we have with our game is that alot of the guys don't really like dealing, myself included. And personally although there has never been a problem I would rather not handle all the money. Now of course I've heard that under the Criminal Code of Canada we can't legally pay a dealer something along the lines of a wage to do these things for us because she would then be taking a profit from the game.
However, I do know somebody who has volunteered for some charity poker tournaments that has expressed interest in dealing our game for free. Of course, by "free" I mean we won't pay her a wage and she won't rake the pots. However, although she is not going to ask for tips, she is probably not going to turn down tips that are offered to her.
My question: does accepting tips constitute "profiting" from the game? Half the guys are saying yes, but the other half believe that as long as all tipping is voluntary and occurs strictly between hands then no.
In other words, say we play a hand, and I win a $60 pot. The dealer gives me the full $60. Then, with all play having ceased and the full pot paid out, I slide three one dollar chips to the dealer, she says "thanks" and drops them in her Red Solo Cup. Of course, at the end of the day that last action on my part must be voluntary, we cannot and will not force players to tip although we do have recourse of not inviting any stingy players back the following week.
We do know that even this is pushing the envelope. That noted, when we tip dealers at the casino, they money goes to them (whether personally or collectively) and not the casino. If our home dealer were to be deemed to be illegally taking a profit from our game, shouldn't casino dealers be deemed to be behaving in exactly the same way?
Any and all input is welcome. Especially, are there any legal cases in Canada involving home game dealers and/or hosts who were hauled before the courts solely on the grounds that the dealers were offered tips?
Rupert
The biggest issue we have with our game is that alot of the guys don't really like dealing, myself included. And personally although there has never been a problem I would rather not handle all the money. Now of course I've heard that under the Criminal Code of Canada we can't legally pay a dealer something along the lines of a wage to do these things for us because she would then be taking a profit from the game.
However, I do know somebody who has volunteered for some charity poker tournaments that has expressed interest in dealing our game for free. Of course, by "free" I mean we won't pay her a wage and she won't rake the pots. However, although she is not going to ask for tips, she is probably not going to turn down tips that are offered to her.
My question: does accepting tips constitute "profiting" from the game? Half the guys are saying yes, but the other half believe that as long as all tipping is voluntary and occurs strictly between hands then no.
In other words, say we play a hand, and I win a $60 pot. The dealer gives me the full $60. Then, with all play having ceased and the full pot paid out, I slide three one dollar chips to the dealer, she says "thanks" and drops them in her Red Solo Cup. Of course, at the end of the day that last action on my part must be voluntary, we cannot and will not force players to tip although we do have recourse of not inviting any stingy players back the following week.
We do know that even this is pushing the envelope. That noted, when we tip dealers at the casino, they money goes to them (whether personally or collectively) and not the casino. If our home dealer were to be deemed to be illegally taking a profit from our game, shouldn't casino dealers be deemed to be behaving in exactly the same way?
Any and all input is welcome. Especially, are there any legal cases in Canada involving home game dealers and/or hosts who were hauled before the courts solely on the grounds that the dealers were offered tips?
Rupert
Comments
That was just an example based on a hypothetical $60 pot. Casinos usually rake 5% so I imagine most players will use that as a basis for calculating a tip.
An undercover RCMP eventually started sitting in the game, and it when they where charged, he of course stated that this was a rake and was mandatory
Who do you think the judge picked? The poker players or the cop?
Same city, bunch of players sued casino when the BBJ was not awarded. Can't remember the hand exactly, but it had something to do with kicker on the board, though hole card criteria was met. The players also lost this one, effectively proving that the best hand doesn't always win and the house does
This is going to sound like I have an axe to grind and maybe I do. Was this case in Alberta? Because I think the AGLC are a bunch of c***s and any organization willing to bare-faced lie about VLT payouts has no right in the lifetime of this universe and the next ten thereafter to lecture us on anything. And don't get me started on the Royal Corrupt Mounted Police.
I don't mind paying a reasonable rake - if we could overcome the Pentecostal fascist opposition to a casino in this burg I wouldn't have a home game and you wouldn't be reading this thread.
Those points noted, we are trying in all good faith to stay on the right side of the law. If you happen to know where I can look up the legal case involving the home game in your post I would love to see it. Because you mention a "paid dealer" - if said dealer was being paid more than just tips then that's not what we intend to do. If (s)he was surreptitiously pilfering the pots without players' consent then the case should have been filed under theft, not running a gaming house.
But if it was a case of a judge believing a lying cop over truthfil players, then I suppose I would be well advised to get everyone to sign a statement saying that any tips they choose are give are voluntary. Then the undercover cop can go ahead and try to explain what his signature meant under cross-examination.
And if that's not good enough, I don't think the guys will mind if we record all our games.
Im aware that you want to be by the books, but if a rotating deal is to much for you or the others to handle, then flip in like 6 bucks each to cover the night of dealing and be hassle free, and tip out of courtesy when you depart.
Paying wages "secretly" would not be legal. Tipping, in the manner I described, that's the issue. Has there ever been a case in Canada not where a judge chose to believe a lying cop, but where a judge convicted despite at least not disbelieving that the tips were voluntary? That's the issue.
I understand, but let's not forget the Alberta Liquor and Gaming C***s who spend taxpayer time busting play money poker games in pubs, lest it take players away from the VLT's whose payouts they like to lie to players about.
Neighbours won't be a problem here, and any sore loser is going to have to explain his signature in cross-examination.
You can swear here......come on let it out.
ya but has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
OK thanks for the info. I'm new here and don't know the standards for decency.
What?
philli?
darb?
aliens?
Maybe not - I don't know of any that's why I'm asking.
It's ok.....those c***s can't get you here.
As I said in the OP finding a dealer isn't the issue here, but having everyone pay ten bucks up front would definitely be considered a mandatory entry fee. That's not defensible that in any court. The purpose of this thread is to try and find a legal way to ensure a reasonable likelihood of adequately compensating the dealer, if we can. I suggest tipping the dealer, and I'm asking if a dealer and/or host has ever got convicted of taking tips - in a case where the court nevertheless acknowledged that the money taken was tips and was still ruled illegal, not where the cop falsely testified that it was mandatory rake.
Make no mistake, yes I have an axe to grind with the AGLC but I'm not trying to go out of my way looking for a legal fight. I'm just looking for a way to play some cards without having to drive 100 miles first. I'm not going to advertise my game on the radio, but it's not realistic to expect that my game will stay strictly secret either.
I think you might find that the whole "signature" thing would not hold up under cross examination. Something about not being able to be bound contractually into something that is not legal.
Long story short, run your game how you and your crew see fit. Odds are, you'll be fine. The more "flow" you have, the more risk comes with it. Solid group of 12 players or so, I doubt you get busted.
FUCK FUCK FUCKITY FUCKING FUCK . . .
Thank you, I feel better.
+1 to this. 99.9% your not going to have problems unless the game draws attention. The biggest point I try to make in responding to these types of posts are there are very few loopholes that come without an expensive lawyer and even then; players usually lose.
As far as my examples, both from Regina Saskatchewan
Alberta friends that had club busted had one guy take heat and they split fine...
Common theme...attention equals busted.
One last example, we had a home game that kept growing and was hitting 60 players at its peak. During a casino major, as people busted, they were telling friends that where headed to this home game instead of sticking around to play cash. Pissed the casino off and we hit phone calls from people who knew AGLC was about to get wind. No rakes, no tips but still hit radar. Any game, like what you can offer here is going to get popular, so just keep in mind attention may follow.
But the only "contract" here would be an agreement between the players and the dealer(s) that the former is NOT obligated to tip the latter. How is that illegal? Has that ever been tested in court?
The AGLC hates it when you steal so much as a crumb off their free lunch. Those cunts are worse than the Mafia.
Regardless of whether it is voluntary or not, the Dealer would still be "profiting" from the game.
We can go round and round all you like . . . the question has been answered. What you propose would be illegal under the laws that currently exist. You can choose to ignore that statement at your peril. Personally, I do not see the point of doing so, just to have a dedicated Dealer. Surely, one or more of your players would not mind rotating in and out of the chair?
The less legally-complicated option we have discussed is having the player between the SB and the button strictly deal and not play that hand. Has that worked for anyone?
Well I'm tilt-resistant and wouldn't mind sitting out one hand in 11. What about having dealing responsibilities rotate through MP's?
The whole point is people don't want to deal the game they are sitting in..so why would they want to sit out and deal?
Milo is correct...ANY profiting, voluntary or mandatory, is illegal. But..as has been said...keep the game under the radar and tip away...enjoy.
EXACTLY.
For the 1 zillionth time . . . no one is allowed to make ANY kind of money out of a home game, except through winning pots. Anything else is illegal. Also, the chances of your home game getting raided are about as good as my chances of getting BAPed into this years WSOPME. and what is so complicated about a rotating deal, anyway.