Sticking With Your Read

gidders

I know there are a lot of players out there who can't stand when their raises aren't respected. Sometimes making a huge call is as important as making a huge bluff, IMO. Here is an example of how taking notes on a player throughout a Mini, or just watching tables and making notes on style can help you out. I was very proud of this call :P


Game #714147275 (Level IV, Game #9) - 30/60 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/02/07-07:35:36.4 (CST)
Table "Santa Isabel" ($10 tournament) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 3: gingerdodge (2,630.00 in chips)
Seat 4: tdoc6 (480.00 in chips)
Seat 5: KINGZ_CORNER (1,570.00 in chips)
Seat 8: gidders (2,010.00 in chips)
Seat 9: IERNIT (2,155.00 in chips)
Seat 10: silicaslick (1,155.00 in chips)
gidders : Post Small Blind (30)
IERNIT : Post Big Blind (60)
Dealt to gidders [ Ks ]
Dealt to gidders [ 8h ]
silicaslick: Fold
gingerdodge: Call (60)
tdoc6 : Fold
KINGZ_CORNER: Fold
gidders : Call (30)
IERNIT : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 6s 5c 8c ]
gidders : Bet (120)
IERNIT : Fold
gingerdodge: Call (120)
*** TURN *** : [ 6s 5c 8c ] [ Qh ]
gidders : Bet (100)
gingerdodge: Call (100)
*** RIVER *** : [ 6s 5c 8c Qh ] [ As ]
gidders : Bet (80)
gingerdodge: Raise (500)
gidders : Call (420)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 1,620 | Board: [ 6s 5c 8c Qh As ]
gingerdodge lost 780 (showed hand) [ Kh 9d ] (high card ace)
tdoc6 didn't bet (folded)
KINGZ_CORNER didn't bet (folded)
gidders bet 780, collected 1,620, net +840 (showed hand) [ Ks 8h ] (a pair of
eights)
IERNIT lost 60 (folded)
silicaslick didn't bet (folded)


What does everyone think about this call. Please note he made his reraise in a heartbeat so I immediately raised an eyebrow, especially at the size of his reraise.

I will post thoughts later.

BBC Z

What does everyone think about this call.

Is the risk worth it? Calling a 500 bet into a 500 pot with 3rd pair seems like a longterm losing proposition to me, especially when a Q and an A hit the turn/river.

I do have a point of contention with the title of this thread.. Reads should be constantly updated via the sum of the actions the player has taken in the hand (and previous hands). 'Sticking to a read' implies to me to be the idea of ignoring some piece of information to stay with a read that supports your original thinking, which I disagree with.

vinsanity

Can I ask what you put him on to make that call?

gidders

Playing with this player for the time I had, I felt that he was raising any ace, weak or strong PF. When I got to see a discounted flop and it came 8 high, I was confident I was in front. He was not the type of player to slowplay a hand like JJ or TT.

When he called my flop bet my instinct that this guy thought he could outplay me later in the hand. I purposely decreased my bet size as to make him believe I only had a pair of 8's, which I did. When he raised it to 500 on the river, he did so very quickly and as if to say "how do those 8's feel now"

I took my time to replay the hand and the length he took to call each of my bets. I put him on a hand like K-high, a busted straight with a weaker pair, but moreso a hand like KT or K9.

I got to thinking. Ok. What can of hand could this guy have? He limped in, and only called my bet on the flop. Could he have a hand like A6o? Maybe. The way I had bet each street (decreased) I made it pretty clear that all I had was a pair of 8's. Why would this guy raise me to 500 when he HAD to know I did not have an ace or queen and wasn't going to call a large bet like that with just 8's? Looks like he REALLY wants me to fold here. I kno if I catch an two pair on the river, I am reraising for value, not trying to drive out my opponent with a bet so large that he can't call with. If he was confident in his hand, I believe he would have made a bet 3x mine or so, say raising to 240 or something.

So, his read on me was correct and I did everything I could to make sure he knew I only had 8's. Why would he raise me SO much on a scare card like an ace when he had to have been pretty sure I'm not calling 420 more if he did have an ace?? To me it just looked like a perfect opportunity for him to sell his bluff, but he oversold it. Had he put himself all in I still might have called, that's how sure I was that he was trying to buy it.

I think that in theory, you are right it is a risky play to call 500 for a 500 or so pot. However, I would add that if you truly believe that your hand is better than your opponents and his betting only further gets you to believe that, it's important to make ballsy calls. I know a lot of times I will call with rags planning to take the pot away on a later street.

You may see this as a dumb call but I've gotten pretty good at being able to read the strength of people's hands from how long they take to act. I think that this was a great read on my opponent and my notes on him made it possible for me to call.

gidders

Keep in mind with this hand, both openenders and flush draws missed. Another reason why I thought he was trying to steal it with the scare card.

BBC Z

You may see this as a dumb call but I've gotten pretty good at being able to read the strength of people's hands from how long they take to act. I think that this was a great read on my opponent and my notes on him made it possible for me to call.

Thats a very dangerous metric to use to use for reads online. You have to consider that there are reasons external to the game as to why a person could be acting slowly. If they are multi-tablings or the door bell rang or a slow computer.. Combine all that stuff with the fact that people will intentionally slow bet/call monster hands and the read is useless.

I think that in theory, you are right it is a risky play to call 500 for a 500 or so pot.

It was either risky or it wasn't, theres no theory about that. I'm questioning the long term viability of that call and you appear to be focused on the short term result. Would you have even considered posting this hand if you lost on the river to A2o? Would it still be a great read?

gidders

I guess all I wanted to post was how sometimes you can't allow yourself to be run over, that's all. It was one of the first times I've ever made a big call with a weak hand like that to a reraise on the river. I'll find a better hand to post next time lol