2/5NL 88 Mid set CR on turn A83r(6r) board.

ReefAquarium

2/5NL Live.

Sometimes I feel like such a donkey.

Background on villain.


AA I bet $25 UTG

2 callers,
Young Villain calls BB

Flop QT3r

Villain donks $85, I raise to $225, Villain shoves all in $580, I call.

Villain shows pair under mid pair, 99 and rivers a set.


*************************************
Same villain 4 hours later.

88 UTG I ($700) raise to $15 UTG

1 caller, Villain bb ($1300) raises to $50.

I call $35 more.

Flop A83r

Villain checks , I bet $50 Villain calls,

Turn Tr

Villain checks , I bet $185

Villain check raises for $485 more.

Hero?

Feel free to make crit on all streets!

compuease

errr, ship? What did you hope for on flop? If he hit set of 10's on turn, chalk it up to a bad bad night.

Did you have any history with the guy prior?

ReefAquarium

compuease wrote: »

errr, ship? What did you hope for on flop? If he hit set of 10's on turn, chalk it up to a bad bad night.

Did you have any history with the guy prior?

Over the last 4 hours the first hand I posted shows off his "thinking"

He's very aggressive.


After he check raised me $485 on the turn, I decide to engage him in conversation.

Hero: What do you have?

Villain: nothing.

Hero: laughs... I think I'm not smart enough to fold this...

Villain: I promise you I don't have 9's...

Hero: I can beat 9's...

... At this point I'm running out of things to say..

Suggestions?

compuease

If you convinced yourself to fold here you are playing above your comfort level.


very very feel dependant... I could not find a fold here unless this was some old nit (like me) who plays nothing but nuts.

ReefAquarium

See the problem is I don't think even very aggressive recreational donks have the balls or creativity to make a shove check raise my near pot sized raise with anything but AA here.

Tourists don't make big check raise buffs like this do they?

ReefAquarium

.. I say, "Sorry guys, I need a bit to think about this"

... I'm afraid you would play aces like this wouldn't you?

... // I don't get a reaction... he sits silent...

ReefAquarium

compuease wrote: »

If you convinced yourself to fold here you are playing above your comfort level.


very very feel dependant... I could not find a fold here unless this was some old nit (like me) who plays nothing but nuts.

I've comfortable with the stakes, I've been playing 10/20NL and 10/25NL.
Assume the money means nothing except as a device to keep score.

What hand can he have to play this way, except AA, TT or a bluff?

compuease

ReefAquarium wrote: »

See the problem is I don't think even very aggressive recreational donks have the balls or creativity to make a shove check raise my near pot sized raise with anything but AA here.

Tourists don't make big check raise buffs like this do they?

Depends, maybe this money means nothin to him.. Can you put him on A,10?

Now I generally only play 1/2 so that would mean I was playing for a like $300. stack instead of $700. but I can't find a fold here.

It sure looks like you folded and he didn't show, right?

compuease

ReefAquarium wrote: »

I've comfortable with the stakes, I've been playing 10/20NL and 10/25NL.
Assume the money means nothing except as a device to keep score.

What hand can he have to play this way, except AA, TT or a bluff?

As I said A,10? Damn, how do you guys separate yourself from the value of money? If I lost a grand or 10 it wouldn't change my life (other than hearing it from the wife.) but I can't bring myself to gamble it.. That's why I stick to 1/2..

Unknown

ReefAquarium wrote: »

I've comfortable with the stakes, I've been playing 10/20NL and 10/25NL.
Assume the money means nothing except as a device to keep score.

What hand can he have to play this way, except AA, TT or a bluff?

first hand shows villain is capable of check raising with air? like he doesn't use any equity....he cr'd with no out pretty much...

here villain's range is polarized i think, which is your issue....he has nuts or air..

well he can have two pair which he views as the nuts

shouldn't we check the dry flop back ?

ReefAquarium

Now consider this problem with a turn of 6r rather than Tr.


Board is now A83r(6r)

Now AT and TT are not in his range...

Does it turn a call into a fold?


Darbday:

Checking back the bone dry flop would avoid this problem but....


I didn't check back the flop because I wanted to build a massive fucking pot.
I bet the flop because I wanted to build a pot.
I bet the turn to set up a river shove without overbetting the pot.

But I didn't think he would CR me without a hand that beats me (AA)







Is this a bet fold?

compuease

I guess I'm a bad player cuz there is no turn there that I don't get it in if I get the chance. Unless, as I said before, op only plays the nuts.

Unknown

ReefAquarium wrote: »

Now consider this problem with a turn of 6r rather than Tr.


Board is now A83r(6r)

Now AT and TT are not in his range...

Does it turn a call into a fold?


Darbday:

Checking back the bone dry flop would avoid this problem but....


I didn't check back the flop because I wanted to build a massive fucking pot.
I bet the flop because I wanted to build a pot.
I bet the turn to set up a river shove without overbetting the pot.

But I didn't think he would CR me without a hand that beats me (AA)







Is this a bet fold?

i know youre saying that his cr range on the turn makes you want to fold but something still needs to be said about the (sklansky) error of trying to build a big pot and then folding when you get your desired result....

especially if villain is capable of bluffing and cring with out any equity vs a reasonable calling range...

ReefAquarium

darbday wrote: »

i know youre saying that his cr range on the turn makes you want to fold but something still needs to be said about the (sklansky) error of trying to build a big pot and then folding when you get your desired result....

especially if villain is capable of bluffing and cring with out any equity vs a reasonable calling range...

Well, I'm value owning myself.

I want to go for thin value from KK, QQ JJ, AK, AQs,

Is this a bet/fold on the turn?

compuease

ReefAquarium wrote: »

Well, I'm value owning myself.

I want to go for thin value from KK, QQ JJ, AK, AQs,

Is this a bet/fold on the turn?

If you really think he's capable with less than 2 pr here, then I call his turn raise and see if he will bet the river since there is no real scare card that can come.


edit: Just reread, that $485. puts you all in so there is no river play... I do not see a fold.

blackmagicz

Smells like 2 pair to me. I don't see a set showing up here. The check call on the flop means he has hit the board. The turn checkraise gives it away for me. If he is a thinking villian he believes you have have an Ace as well and he thinks he has outflopped you and really doesn't want to see a face card.

In most live games raises preflop and situations like this people give you credit for AK AQ when you c-bet that flop in most situations and people will sneak in with small aces just to crack the AK, AQ hands.

Most sets usually do some silly min-raise (typical live player), shoves like this to get you to call or fold are hands where they are scared of the river.

GTA Poker

ReefAquarium wrote: »

What hand can he have to play this way, except AA, TT or a bluff?

Um...did you not read the first hand you posted? Without a decent live read this is all in all day. You only had 140bb to start the hand it's not like you're very deep.

GTA Poker

ReefAquarium wrote: »

2/5NL Live.



Background on villain.


AA I bet $25 UTG

2 callers,
Young Villain calls BB

Flop QT3r

Villain donks $85, I raise to $225, Villain shoves all in $580, I call.

Villain shows pair under mid pair, 99 and rivers a set.


*************************************

/thread?

I don't get it.

DrTyore

Stopped reading all responses.

Ship all cookies, swear and reload as necessary.

Mark

compuease

Seems like a pretty unanimous response. So what was the result, you folded and hoped you were right?

JimmyHo

sounds like set over set tragedy or quad 3s on the river.

betrthanphil

cant really fold here, if he is willing to play 99 like that clearly he might think he was trapping with AK. or raised with a10 then wasnt prepared to put a lot in on flop so checked for pot control.

T8urmoney

Some rec players also see AK as the nuts here. Given previous hand, I'm not sure how you're not fist pumping snap?

This is a tough fold against the nittiest of players, and he's shown to be anti-nitty.

pele1515

I think you should be super happy to get it all in here. It seems to me like he has two pair after the cr turn. He thinks you have AK or AQ he probs has A10. I really really hope you didn't fold

GTA Poker

pele1515 wrote: »

I think you should be super happy to get it all in here. It seems to me like he has two pair after the cr turn. He thinks you have AK or AQ he probs has A10. I really really hope you didn't fold

Given the history posted no decent player ever folds here 140bb deep except vs a nit or without a dead-on live read. I assume the post is results oriented being set over set.

pele1515

GTA Poker wrote: »

Given the history posted no decent player ever folds here 140bb deep except vs a nit or without a dead-on live read. I assume the post is results oriented being set over set.

Agreed, lets hear it tho. What did he have?

ReefAquarium

..

I felt it was very likely that he could have AA here.

I hated getting it in because tourist villains don't CR for $400 with AK here.

I know folding here can make you exploitable like (as a friend says) "a child laborer in Africa" but I think a fold *is* reasonable here.

I called and was shown AA.

But I think a fold would be reasonable.

Tourists don't make big CR buffs.

betrthanphil

???? wasnt the first hand similiar. If he is capable of that than hes capable of it here.....also tourists dont make big CR bluffs? thats a pretty big assumption and I can guarentee a lot of people on this forum including myself can say that statement is....FALSE! haha

ReefAquarium

True...

That's why I called here...
This guy is a rare exception to the "Tourists don't make CR bluffs"

Unknown

betrthanphil wrote: »

???? wasnt the first hand similiar. If he is capable of that than hes capable of it here.....also tourists dont make big CR bluffs? thats a pretty big assumption and I can guarentee a lot of people on this forum including myself can say that statement is....FALSE! haha

I screwed up a little in what i said.....he didn't check raise bluff in the first hand.....he likely did it for value....much like putting you on ak....its really wrong and really awkward but even if he says it was to knock you off a hand, i still think hes counting on his pair off 9's.

So we didn't show hes capable of cring as a bluff or with air....but def that he can over value his hands.......im guessing with that in mind op would fold.....

literation

ReefAquarium wrote: »

True...

That's why I called here...
This guy is a rare exception to the "Tourists don't make CR bluffs"

Thanks for the call. I was lurking reading this with great interest and the other point about chips in a game:

http://www.pokerforum.ca/f8/how-do-you-handle-moving-down-27123/#post291217

.