You make the play #3

ScottyZ

2/4 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Thu Apr 08 23:18:01 EDT 2004
Table Deal Quick (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ScottyZ ( $174)
Seat 2: Splonk ( $91)
Seat 3: lovethepirk ( $227)
Seat 4: biggallo ( $104)
Seat 5: annoa ( $40)
Seat 6: bobwheaton22 ( $76.26)
Seat 7: daddison11 ( $208.50)
Seat 8: wayoverpar ( $90.50)
Seat 9: WorksHard ( $173)
Seat 10: straightNuts ( $117)
annoa posts small blind (1)
bobwheaton22 posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ScottyZ [ 6s, 6h ]
daddison11 calls (2)
wayoverpar folds.
WorksHard folds.
straightNuts folds.
ScottyZ calls (2)
Splonk folds.
lovethepirk calls (2)
biggallo folds.
annoa calls (1)
bobwheaton22 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4h, 3s, Kd ]
annoa checks.
bobwheaton22 checks.
daddison11 checks.
ScottyZ bets (2)
lovethepirk folds.
annoa calls (2)
bobwheaton22 folds.
daddison11 calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6d ]
annoa bets (4)
daddison11 raises (8) to 8

Now what?

ScottyZ

esool

Raise or fold.
I would raise. Lets find out if daddison hit his straight or not. Hopefully this narrows the field to two or if we are real lucky they both fold. Also it would depend how the other players have been playing up until now. Are they rocks? Either way we can still hit a full house or quads on the river..

ScottyZ

In the absence of a significant player read, the only real question mark is annoa who entered on the SB and could have just about anything.

It's probably safe to assume that neither player has KK.

ScottyZ

professor

Call and raise when he bets again on the river.
You have the best hand, and he will.

rroarr

I'm sure Daddy hit his straight. But I still call.

Flush

rroarr said:

I'm sure Daddy hit his straight. But I still call.

You actually think Dadd played 2,5 or 5,7 from UTG preflop???

Then again it is Party 2/4

rezdog

I would raise, as value bet, if he raises you know you are beat.

SupaMuncher

I'm not worried about Dad having the straight...to me, it looks like a semi-bluff when he picked up his diamond flush draw. Annoa might have hit a straight, but it could have been a bet (thinking the 6 was a blank) to steal the pot. I would raise, just to see where everyone is. Either way, it's going to be VERY difficult for them to put you on a set of sixes.

professor

So, Scotty, what happened?

stpboy

Most smart players will raise on the turn rather then on the flop when they have flopped a monster. This makes me think that (s)he either flopped two pair K4 (which I have seen people play UTG when suited) or (s)he also hit their set of 3's or 4's. Hey, who knows maybe the player just has KQ and thinks it is strong enough. Noone raised preflop so they obviously don't have slick, is what (s)he might be thinking. My two cents...either way I for sure raise this player and just call on the river if (s)he is re-raising all over the place, unless the board pairs and then i'm capping it.

stp

professor

If you raise the turn and you're winning, will (s)he
bet the river? (Would she bet the river anyway?
Don't know enough about the other player.)

If you raise the turn and are re-raised, you pretty much have to call to see if the river pairs. That's
two extra big bets on a 10-out draw.

I'd rather call the turn and see the river for cheap.
If I'm winning I won't scare off a weaker hand, and
if I'm losing I get my draw to the boat for one or
two fewer bets. Even if the river doesn't pair,
if (s)he checks I bet out and call if raised (unless
the board screams "straight"). Might even think about raising a bet if it seems like a weak bet somehow.

My opinion's worth probably less than $0.02.

ScottyZ

So, Scotty, what happened?

I re-raised. I can't possibly think I don't have the best hand here, and I think I get the most value by giving both players the chance to call the extra bets on the turn in case they are on some sort of draw. (More below the hand.)

ScottyZ raises (12) to 12
annoa calls (8)
daddison11 calls (4)
** Dealing River ** : [ Th ]
annoa checks.
daddison11 checks.
ScottyZ bets (4)
annoa calls (4)
daddison11 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $57 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 4h 3s Kd 6d Th ]
ScottyZ balance $211, bet $20, collected $57, net +$37 [ 6s 6h ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- Kd,Th,6s,6h,6d ]
Splonk balance $91, didn't bet (folded)
lovethepirk balance $225, lost $2 (folded)
biggallo balance $104, didn't bet (folded)
annoa balance $20, lost $20 [ Ks 8d ] [ a pair of kings -- Ks,Kd,Th,8d,6d ]
bobwheaton22 balance $74.26, lost $2 (folded)
daddison11 balance $192.50, lost $16 (folded)
wayoverpar balance $90.50, didn't bet (folded)
WorksHard balance $173, didn't bet (folded)
straightNuts balance $117, didn't bet (folded)

The thing I really wanted to point out here was that annoa probably lost this hand by not betting out on the flop with top pair, bad kicker. I think it might be worth betting out to protect a hand even this poor. By letting me take control of the betting (perhaps I even should have checked the flop instead of betting), I get to the turn 6, whereas I probably wouldn't have called someone else's flop bet here.

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against annoa checking that flop *with the intention of folding*. (That's probably how I'd play it myself.) But look at the kind of trouble he/she gets into by checking *and calling* on the flop.

I find it stanger still that annoa wakes up on the turn and decides to suddenly bet out.

This is a perfect example of one of those hands where, on the surface, it seems like I got lucky; but in reality, I probably end up winning the pot because of another player's poor play.

ScottyZ

SupaMuncher

Very interesting hand, Scotty. It's too bad we can't see what Daddy had...although, judging by the calling the turn bet and folding on the river, I maintain my rightness about the flush-draw semi-bluff.

ScottyZ

I'd agree with that. We can be pretty sure that he had some kind of draw that didn't get there, because the pot is probably too big to fold the river for only one bet with any kind of hand besides a busted draw.

Also, a pretty silly way to play a draw, don't you think?

I guess the main point of the first post was: What the heck do these players have when they check & call the flop, and suddenly it's bet out and raised to me (the flop bettor) on the turn when I hit *my* card? Could that 6 have really helped anyone else? Sometimes in low limit you've just got to grit your teeth and assume the set of 6's is good. Even though you'll occasionally get wiped out in low limit by some yahoo with 25 UTG (or, less insanely, from the SB), you can't be so scared that you're prevented from getting the maximum value when you do hit big hands yourself.

ScottyZ