$550 Live hand 2
Hand 2
BB, stack about 7000, average now at 16k+ Blinds, 200/400ish
J10 clubs. T8urmoney makes it 1600 to go.
I play this hand hoping to hit a flop hard, mostly a draw
Flop top pair, but otherwise don’t connect to the board. We are heads up in the pot and I lead for 1350ish
He re-raises to somewhere between 3600-3800. Same as Hand 1, it’s push or fold in the end.
I end up folding, a few others who’s game I respect agree with the fold, figure I should have checked raised here if anything. The only reasons I question this hand are as follows:
When I do muck, T8 asks if I had KJ. This raises a bit of a red flag that I might be perceived as ultra tight at this point. I also know that T8 observed that I hated being re-raised in QQ hand. I know that my image is fairly tight as I had played back at a raise on my blind with a 78 and got a fold out of a balanced player on an Ace 7, x flop when I lead into him. This was only confirmed later when T8 and I got in the Ace Queen hand, he called my preflop raise but didn’t snap call with AQ when I pushed in short stacked on a flopped Ace, holding AQ himself. Later when I shoved about 4k with pocket fives, I didn’t get a snap call from a bigger stack holding 77, though he did decide to make the call and bust me.
Part of me wonders if T8 just leveled the hell out of me in this hand. He also said "I had a big hand persay" after the muck. His table talk definetlly is effective.
Early in the game I had showed down 88 calling every street on jack high flop to take the pot and got stubborn with top pair in a big pot in another, so I don’t think I was sending the message I would easily fold even if I connected.
Thoughts?
BB, stack about 7000, average now at 16k+ Blinds, 200/400ish
J10 clubs. T8urmoney makes it 1600 to go.
I play this hand hoping to hit a flop hard, mostly a draw
Flop top pair, but otherwise don’t connect to the board. We are heads up in the pot and I lead for 1350ish
He re-raises to somewhere between 3600-3800. Same as Hand 1, it’s push or fold in the end.
I end up folding, a few others who’s game I respect agree with the fold, figure I should have checked raised here if anything. The only reasons I question this hand are as follows:
When I do muck, T8 asks if I had KJ. This raises a bit of a red flag that I might be perceived as ultra tight at this point. I also know that T8 observed that I hated being re-raised in QQ hand. I know that my image is fairly tight as I had played back at a raise on my blind with a 78 and got a fold out of a balanced player on an Ace 7, x flop when I lead into him. This was only confirmed later when T8 and I got in the Ace Queen hand, he called my preflop raise but didn’t snap call with AQ when I pushed in short stacked on a flopped Ace, holding AQ himself. Later when I shoved about 4k with pocket fives, I didn’t get a snap call from a bigger stack holding 77, though he did decide to make the call and bust me.
Part of me wonders if T8 just leveled the hell out of me in this hand. He also said "I had a big hand persay" after the muck. His table talk definetlly is effective.
Early in the game I had showed down 88 calling every street on jack high flop to take the pot and got stubborn with top pair in a big pot in another, so I don’t think I was sending the message I would easily fold even if I connected.
Thoughts?
Comments
I was just going to say how much I would have liked a shove pre here.
Especially against T8 who is opening super wide - and its a hand that plays really well if we do get called.
Oh, and I was playing tight.
If you limp shove on me, I'm folding quickly.
From Jon's perspective....this should be an open fold. You're not deep enough to be playing this hand...especially oop from early position. There's merit to raising from late position....but without additional information, I don't like anything but folding preflop.
When you get iso-raised from T8, you really shouldn't call. You don't have enough chips behind to be able to profitable play this hand postflop oop. Which is why people are saying it's a shove or fold preflop now. Without further information, I think it's an easy fold. You limp utg, and get raised utg+2 with entire table left to act. You're ahead of no hands....and can only bluff.
After you call preflop and have top pair....I think the only real play is to check-shove...unless you pick up something.
For T8, if you're iso-raising and folding to any 3bet/shove....you might as well iso less. It's not going to make a difference if you iso to 1350 or 1600. You're going to get the same result 90% of the time...you should make it smaller to make your bluffs cheaper.
I would say he's way too deep (17.5bb) to be open shoving utg with this hand....but I'm just another nit from YEG
think u misread...raise pre was to 1600....raise on flop was to 3800...and I wasn't folding obv on the flop
I know the general rule ppl go by is (3x the bb + 1 bb for every limper)....that rule may apply at the beginning of tourneys when everyone is deep stacked. In this spot, your intention was to raise-fold to a shove....if you ever have a raise-folding range here, you should raise less (with your entire range). Jon's not deep enough for that general rule to apply, you're risking more chips needlessly. This is especially true...because you not only have to get through the initial limp, but the rest of the table that has yet to act.
The only real risk of raising to say 1400 instead of 1600 is that you may be get a cold-call that you didn't want, but realistically....live players ranges here aren't going to change if you make it 1400 or 1600.
I know it sounds silly to worry about 1/2 a bb, but optimizing each bet will only make you better.
Who are you windbreaker? I have looked over your posts since you came here and you seem way to logical and mature to be posting here.
In any case, post more to balance off the illogical majority...
And T8, what are you even opening if you're snapfolding to a short stack shove?
Still don't think you should be shoving 17,5 BB's UTG
Have to agree with T8 and Richard here...I can see where this would be tough for anyone to call, but seems hugely risky considering the pot.
I am being pretty loose in making the call at all, but my stack can still handle a bit more of a dip before I am push or fold IMO. I also agree I should fold this pre, after dumping some chips 2 hands in a row, obviously anxious/tilty to get back in it and this was a more isolated hand and not terrible holdings. Lets all agree my pre-flop actions were shit, but post flop is where I am uncertain.
T8 gave me no reason not to believe he didn't have a hand, he wasn't playing ultra aggresive. The check raise line I like, but he says in the thread he was not folding and I don't believe he would either. He put enough in to lead me to believe he would call my shove, whether or not this was intentional to represent added strength only he knows.
I know he is a good player, lucky enough to have some insight on his track record so I can assume he is giving me credit for top pair and still raising.
Am I being too tight folding top pair here? Is this the kind of post flop spot and stacks sizes I should be more actively check raising?
It's intresting all of our online grinders shove so deep, I believe it is a great play based on the range some players would call with and leaves me curious as to learn more at how they make this decision
However it seems hugely risky against live players. I watched Dennis shove 25 BB into what didn't seem like a huge pot pre-flop, holding A9. What was weirder is that he got called by A6, doubling him up.
Biggest problem I have is that there are so many marginal hands that there are a ton of players would call the minimum they had to with marginal hands pre-flop and still be willing to call off their stack here.
Medium pockets, A10, Aj, AQ aren't always raised alot in this size of tourney, do this backfire often or are you feeling pretty confident that nobody will call or are you confident you will be racing vs a worst hand?
Help me understand the thinking, suited connectors I see that getting called is so much a big deal, and A9 is ahead of a ton of hands, is the strength of the shove against a similar stack and picking off smaller pots repeatedly the plan?
Wrong quote...meant to quote windbreaker.
This does make a ton of sense as far as long term playing habits. Thanks!
I will say that the 1600 was enough to make consider folding pre while 1350 would have gotten a snap call. With blinds going to 300/600 and most of the table folded out, 1600 seemed like the best price I was going to get in the near future.
Is J10 suited a hand I want to fold pre if I believe I might sneak into a more isolated hand with a similar sized stack? This could be something I seriously need to change.
windbreaker adressed why I shouldn't based on stack, so what are the minimum hands you would play UTG here? I have been bad for making position low on my priority list lately as I just don't believe in waiting for ideal hands in ideal psition anymore or I find myself blinding out.
If sb raises the same I think I fold, but I almost expect T8 to raise with any two given the circumstances. He isn't showing down much either, so I don't think I should give him auto credit for a hand and as a competent player, raising the limper out of the BB is almost reflex.
By the same logic, as far as pre planning goes, a raise when I entered the pot seemed like it would cost me more in the end. I wanted to play it, I was willing to fold for say 2k as 1600 was pretty standard at this point. If i was reraised as the action went around the table and I had raised pre, I would have had to fold, where as if I limp called the raise, I was still putting the same amount of chips in and would play a flop.
Someone was going to raise late, that was a given, though I do see that I could have represented strength and had someone flat call me instead and that would have been a better approach if I was going to play it.
Board texturewise as someone else asked I don't rembember exactlly, it was J73ish rainbow. I do know if I had even a gut shot to go with top pair I would have shipped overtop of T8, but it was just a little too off....
Our table wasn't overlly tough, but if I didn't get something going soon It was obvious I would get bombarded as the short stack.
It also didn't seem like a crowd that was going to double me up or even put many chips in if we didn't play post flop. if that makes any sense at all why I wanted to take this spot with T8. He had me covered, but wasn't a huge stack so I figured we would get the money in on the right flop. As it turned out, we did put more chips in the middle the hands we played than most of the hands vs other end of the table.
- J10s is playable with the right table dynamics. When you limp in preflop utg with this hand, it creates the wrong table dynamics. There are some situations where you may consider stealing utg and folding to any 3 bet. A situation of a good table dynamic to do this is like when you have been a nit and everyone knows it.
- My utg range here depends. It starts with how active I have been, how active has the table been, what are the stack sizes around the table....will I have to call a shove from a short stack? Who's the button, who's in the blind? etc. If just got moved to the table and everyone covers....then my general range is going to be tight here. Something like 88+, AQo/s+, and maybe KQs.
- If you open preflop, you've made the assumption that you should call any 3 bet. You really shouldn't make that assumption at all. Had you made it 1k preflop....A) Other players are less likely to raise you
- The biggest issue with this hand is that you hit one of the best flops you can hope for...and you still ended up folding. Obviously when you play suited connectors you're hoping for straight/flush draw/pair type combo draws....but it's not that easy to make top pair. J10s looks pretty enough, but your still way behind T8's range...and thus it caused you to fold.
- You shouldn't worry about doubling up or about the blinds moving up soon. When I'm short stack, I still rather not get to showdown (unless I've got a good hand)....I rather raise and steal blinds and antes all day long. As for the blinds moving up....ya it sucks and it'll affect you....but you're not going to make things better taking bad spots when the blinds are lower.
I think this is really villain specific. Ive watched T8 play a limited amount of time live but I would mark him as the same type of player as myself. Really LAG pre and pretty snug post.
I know he opens alot of pots (really.....) wide. So we're gonna pick up the pots a ton with a 18bb stack because I perceive his calling range to be basically AK, 1010+, maybe AQ/99 but idk. Were also gonna win like a third of the time or so if we run into his calling range. So I think a shove is best in the spot you explained originally.
However the actual spot is a little different.
If he perceives your open limp as weakness (which really it is) then he can 4x iso with a really wide range here, and blow you off of must flops. I iso basically everything napkins+ in this spot vs. high blind limpers, especially live. JTss you have to open here if you want to play it, because it makes raise/folding super easy.
Absolutely. I would never open shove this hand here.
I would 3bet T8 as villain specific shove.
I would limp shove if I got isod (but I doubt Id ever be in that spot)
Would you really limp shove T8's 1600 chips even though he's aware of your stack before isolating? I'm not implying it's wrong, but it sounds really loose
Its a weird post because Im putting myself in the shoes as a random HBL. If I was a thinking player who had a brain cramp and limped, you could probably recover on your mistake by shoving and it would be profitable because youre getting way more respect than you should.
So as myself - no, 1) because Im probably never limping here and 2) because if I was limping it would probably be to crush somebody who isod me.
My real response in this thread was to point out that this is a great hand and stacksize to 3bet shove a loose opener.
In live poker, take everything you know and divide it by 2.
Edit: Holdem resources says 7.5%, 99+ ATs+ A5s AQo+ KTs+ QTs+
but even so I don't shove many of those hands since I prefer to play exploitably by reshipping wide instead
HoldemResources.net: ICM Nash Calculator
I just put in for 17,5 BB stacks with a 10% ante rather than a 12,5% ante. Even so, you can only push J10s here if you also push AA, if the rest of your table can take out parts of your range, the calling ranges will be different and you won't be able to shove as wide.
By reshipping light I mean shoving my BB against a CO open with 97o or something. I just feel I can exploit the table better in an enviroment that is more controlled than shoving into 8 random hands