Sunday Jan 16, Personal Tourney Summary (note: long)
Sunday, January 16, 2005
NOTE: There islots of random tidbits and lots of stuff missing on critical plays because I have a horrible short term memory (you would be amazed how much that hurts my stud game) … and I never imagined I would actually post anything about this, should have taken notes
Having read about the tournament Azim was running on Sunday, I decided to make a trip to play. Usually Sunday is out of the question since I’m in the retail business, but our stores were just totally dead and I wasn’t needed.
Showed up at 1pm, found out things weren’t starting till 2. So left and did some shopping at Yorkville. Came back at 2 and found they were starting to serve food (great spread of food). Tourney finally started at 3:30
Tourney had a $60 entry (2000 chips), with $30 re-buys (2000 chips) and a $30 add-on (4000 chips). I think they had about 55 people enter the tourney, we started with 6 tables roughly 9 handed. I start at table 4 seat 10.
Only knew one guy on the table, guy runs a poker game elsewhere in the city and is a fun character and plays and gives action. One other guy instantly drew my attention, he was a big talker and everyone was laughing about how because he bet out on a Royal flush draw on the flop in a ring game, everyone folded and it cost him the jackpot cause he would have hit on the turn, so that’s a few grand down the drain. We even gave him the obvious nickname ‘Royal’. So me and everyone else at OUR table takes an opening re-buy to double our chips.
Re-buy period
Well my initial plan was to re-buy if necessary but to wait for my spots. The two people I just mentioned though went into crazy mode for the beginning of the tourney, all-in blind etc… I won one tiny pot, where I called a guy down with ace high, he mucked instantly when I called. ‘Royal’ went on a made streak early on and had like 15,000 chips early on when everyone else was just sitting at 5-6,000. He was just running over the table constantly. I was being dealt a constant stream of junk and tiny pocket pair (22, 33, 44 etc…) … nothing I wanted to play for all-in, since that’s how the hands were going. I knew if I waited patiently I would get a good spot to double up.
Blinds @ 50/100: I have 88 utg, I just limp in as does another player, a really really tight but good player moves all-in for about 4000, another player who gives action but generally with big cards and any suited connector calls the all-in. I knew the first guy who went all-in only had one of two possible hands KK or QQ, he was skilled enough that a normal raise was fine for him with AA, AK. I reluctantly fold, and he flips up KK, other guy has AQ. I made the good fold, but really hated seeing an ‘8’ on the flop. Well in the end AQ won that hand with runner runner Qs on the end.
People have pegged me as playing ‘good’ cards and so my raises even for small amounts aren’t getting action, and I need to double up once or twice to be in the spot I want.
Blinds @ 50/100: I’ve basicly just been blinding away some chips and am sitting at 3000 out of an original 4000 from the opening buy-in and re-buy. I’m dealt QQ in second position, I limp since I’m not willing to only win the blinds, I want to double or triple up. Shockingly though we get an unraised pot. Flop comes out j-high, BB fires out 2,000 and I push all-in, comes folded back around to him. He honestly has a tough choice for the remaining 1000, since he had bluffed at the pot with Q7o, for Q high. Calls reluctantly and that hand puts me at about 7000.
Blinds @ 100/200: ‘Royal’ now has like 30,000 chips and is totally dominating the table. UTG I have KQo, I just limp with the intent of pushing all-in to raises from anyone except maybe 1 or 2 select players on the table. As expected ‘Royal’ puts in a big raise to 5000 from middle position, blinds fold. I say “that’s it, I’m all-in†(I had a little over 7000) … he has a slightly beleaguered look, comes back to him and he calls and shows down a real hand TT, I hit a ‘K’ on the flop and for the first time ‘Royal’ has lost a race or really anything. I uncharacteristically actually act cocky on that hand, and for the most part forced him to shut it down, in terms of bullying the table. That got me on the good side of most of the table. I now have about 14,000 and i’ve got the chips I need to have fun
Funny note, our table had one girl dedicated to handling re-buys, while someone else handled the other 5 tables. That should give you an idea of where the action was.
Re-buy period ends and I’ve basically held on and end the re-buy with the 14,000 I won on my big hand. I take the add-on. So my total investment on the tourney is $60 + $30 + $30 … for $120. I’ve got an above average stack, and I feel good.
continued after the re-buy next post
NOTE: There islots of random tidbits and lots of stuff missing on critical plays because I have a horrible short term memory (you would be amazed how much that hurts my stud game) … and I never imagined I would actually post anything about this, should have taken notes
Having read about the tournament Azim was running on Sunday, I decided to make a trip to play. Usually Sunday is out of the question since I’m in the retail business, but our stores were just totally dead and I wasn’t needed.
Showed up at 1pm, found out things weren’t starting till 2. So left and did some shopping at Yorkville. Came back at 2 and found they were starting to serve food (great spread of food). Tourney finally started at 3:30
Tourney had a $60 entry (2000 chips), with $30 re-buys (2000 chips) and a $30 add-on (4000 chips). I think they had about 55 people enter the tourney, we started with 6 tables roughly 9 handed. I start at table 4 seat 10.
Only knew one guy on the table, guy runs a poker game elsewhere in the city and is a fun character and plays and gives action. One other guy instantly drew my attention, he was a big talker and everyone was laughing about how because he bet out on a Royal flush draw on the flop in a ring game, everyone folded and it cost him the jackpot cause he would have hit on the turn, so that’s a few grand down the drain. We even gave him the obvious nickname ‘Royal’. So me and everyone else at OUR table takes an opening re-buy to double our chips.
Re-buy period
Well my initial plan was to re-buy if necessary but to wait for my spots. The two people I just mentioned though went into crazy mode for the beginning of the tourney, all-in blind etc… I won one tiny pot, where I called a guy down with ace high, he mucked instantly when I called. ‘Royal’ went on a made streak early on and had like 15,000 chips early on when everyone else was just sitting at 5-6,000. He was just running over the table constantly. I was being dealt a constant stream of junk and tiny pocket pair (22, 33, 44 etc…) … nothing I wanted to play for all-in, since that’s how the hands were going. I knew if I waited patiently I would get a good spot to double up.
Blinds @ 50/100: I have 88 utg, I just limp in as does another player, a really really tight but good player moves all-in for about 4000, another player who gives action but generally with big cards and any suited connector calls the all-in. I knew the first guy who went all-in only had one of two possible hands KK or QQ, he was skilled enough that a normal raise was fine for him with AA, AK. I reluctantly fold, and he flips up KK, other guy has AQ. I made the good fold, but really hated seeing an ‘8’ on the flop. Well in the end AQ won that hand with runner runner Qs on the end.
People have pegged me as playing ‘good’ cards and so my raises even for small amounts aren’t getting action, and I need to double up once or twice to be in the spot I want.
Blinds @ 50/100: I’ve basicly just been blinding away some chips and am sitting at 3000 out of an original 4000 from the opening buy-in and re-buy. I’m dealt QQ in second position, I limp since I’m not willing to only win the blinds, I want to double or triple up. Shockingly though we get an unraised pot. Flop comes out j-high, BB fires out 2,000 and I push all-in, comes folded back around to him. He honestly has a tough choice for the remaining 1000, since he had bluffed at the pot with Q7o, for Q high. Calls reluctantly and that hand puts me at about 7000.
Blinds @ 100/200: ‘Royal’ now has like 30,000 chips and is totally dominating the table. UTG I have KQo, I just limp with the intent of pushing all-in to raises from anyone except maybe 1 or 2 select players on the table. As expected ‘Royal’ puts in a big raise to 5000 from middle position, blinds fold. I say “that’s it, I’m all-in†(I had a little over 7000) … he has a slightly beleaguered look, comes back to him and he calls and shows down a real hand TT, I hit a ‘K’ on the flop and for the first time ‘Royal’ has lost a race or really anything. I uncharacteristically actually act cocky on that hand, and for the most part forced him to shut it down, in terms of bullying the table. That got me on the good side of most of the table. I now have about 14,000 and i’ve got the chips I need to have fun
Funny note, our table had one girl dedicated to handling re-buys, while someone else handled the other 5 tables. That should give you an idea of where the action was.
Re-buy period ends and I’ve basically held on and end the re-buy with the 14,000 I won on my big hand. I take the add-on. So my total investment on the tourney is $60 + $30 + $30 … for $120. I’ve got an above average stack, and I feel good.
continued after the re-buy next post
Comments
I win a decent pot 5000 or so with AK, when someone calls my opening raise and folds to my pot sized bet with a K on the board.
I have the honour of knocking out first person in the tourney, when I make a big raise to isolate the guy who went all-in I have A4s, vs his 78o or 89o etc… that hand helped cause people saw I was willing to mix it up.
My table collapse somewhere during 200/400 and I’m moved to table 1. I come to that table in decent chip position overall, and second or third largest stack on my table. Played and won and lost a few small pots, and a few battle of the blinds.
Memorable hand: MP I raise against some tight blinds with 56s. I raise to 1200. I get one caller and the blinds fold. Low rag flop comes out, I pair my 6, but have no draws etc… I fire out a pot sized bet of 3000. He thinks and calls it, leaving himself with 5000 chips left. Turn is an Ace, and I can see he didn’t like that card. I fire out a 5,000 chip bet to put him all-in. He gives up the hand. Not sure what he had, but I was happy with how I played it.
Playing 400/800 … I maintain my stack, picking up blinds etc… to stay alive.
We play at 600/1200 and 1000/2000 for a long time short handed before we get to the final table. Mostly I’m playing small ball, no big pots and really wanting to get down to the final table where we’ll be 10 handed. I know I must have won on good pot in there since I went to the final table with about 40,000 chips. Basicly leaving me medium stacked.
Oh I should mention the payout schedule.
First: $2800
Second: $1400
Third: $700
Fourth: $500
Fifth: $400
Sixth: Buy-in to another $200 tourney.
We start the final table playing 2000/4000, so the blinds are decently high. I’ve decided that money is a consideration for me, and that my first goal is to make it to 5th place, and after that I’ll make whatever moves I need to get top 2.
Problem is table went into super aggressive mode for a bit, and we lost a few players after maybe two orbits, once we were down to 6 handed again, I was the second short stack with about 20,000 chips down from 40,000 when we started the final table. I decided to let the blinds consume the short stack, we was trying to wait me out. With blinds at 2000/4000 he pushed in his final 5500 on the button. For only 1500 more the bb called, with the short stack showing Aces (what timing). He doubled up and 3 or 4 hands later he doubled up again with AK. Problem was the blinds were so high that he was still short stacked.
THE RUN
With about 12000 chips left after having had to release my last two blinds at 2000/4000 to big raises from early position, both times shown as AJ and AA. I have to fold my 93o and 72o.
Blinds go to 4000/8000
I was being dealt a never ending streak of 9 high type hands, and didn’t have enough of a stack to push people out of pots, any hand I was going to play was for all my money. I’m short stacked but have decided that I’m not pushing with hands where I’m 100% guaranteed to be on the short end of it.
So having found nothing to play I post my 8000 chips blind and I’m left with 4500 or so more. It’s folded to the SB, and he completes (SB is the other short stack btw). I have QJ and decide that rather than putting the rest in now, I’ll put it on the flop. Who knows maybe it’ll work, either way I know I’m playing for all my chips on this hand. Flop comes Q high, sb fires 5000 more and I go all-in. he had ace high, and my hand holds up. And suddenly I have chips to play.
Next hand in the sb, I’m dealt JJ. Utg limps, and it’s folded to me (I fear this guy limping UTG since he loves trapping with big pairs in this spot seen him do it a few times), I push all-in and the utg limper calls quickly. He had q9 (don’t know if it was suited) … I double up again and now have about 60,000 chips.
Next hand I raise all-in with KJs on the button, pick up the blinds 12000 in blinds.
So in less than one orbit, i went from having 4500 or so after posting my blind to having almost 80,000.
Blinds go up to 5000/10000
Some point 6th place busts out. I’m guaranteed a $400 payday
Interesting hand: UTG raises to 25,000 … UTG2 calls the 25,000 and it’s folded to the BB pushs all-in. UTG goes totally into the tank, and folds with about a lot of his chips in the pot. He counts it out and knows if loses he’ll be crippled. UTG2 calls with A2o, BB shows TT and wins the pot and eliminates A2. UTG folded jacks.
I keep picking up blinds and win a few pots can’t recall the details. But I’m second in chips by this point
THE HAND:
This was the defining hand I think, the spot I decided to finally gamble to move up to the top money. I’m sorry but I really don’t have the math proper for this hand.
On the button I raise to 30,000 with A4 of spades. SB folds and BB calls for 20,000 more. So pot has 65,000 in it.
Flop comes down QJ8 with two spades.
The BB goes all in for almost 70,000 more and while I’m a slow player sometimes for the first time I can remember I go completely into the tank. I just sit there and try to patiently do the math. I know most people would say just chuck it. If I called I would have about 12,000 chips left. The difference between 3rd and 4th was only $100 but if I win this hand I’m the chip leader. I try to patiently figure it out. I have to assume that he has at least a pair. This player really likes to slow play, so even with a scary board like that, he would slow play a set to get more money. I figured he likely had a pair with some sort of draw, with a straight draw or maybe something like KQ with the K of spades. I knew guaranteed he was leading on my ace high. And then I after an eternity I called and flipped my A4, he had J9o. he had a pair with a gut shot straight draw. Turn was an ‘Ace’ and I had nearly doubled up.
I would have had lots of chips to keep playing if i folded but i didn't think i could fold it. it just came down to a read, if he had one pair, i was nearly even money. if he had more than that i was a big dog, but was likely still getting the right price to call.
I REALLY WOULD LIKE PEOPLE’S OPINIONS ON THE ABOVE HAND
Once we were three handed me and the other chip leader ground out the short stack, and once we were heads up we just did a chop. I had him out chipped by a decent margin, but I was already more than 90 minutes late for my evening plans, and I didn’t feel any need to put $1400 at risk in that situation. We took $2000 each and we left $200 for the dealers. They basicly ran one hand blind, to declare a tournament winner … so technically I came in second.
Do you think $100 from $2100 (my share) was a fair tip, too high or too low?
For the record overall i would rate my play as not being very good actually, a little to tight but i think the absoule crud cards i was getting for a long stretch on the final table had to do with that also. I know azim was watching the final table, would love his input or advise.
And if you honestly just read this entire post, you definitely have the patience of a poker winning poker player.
Last but most important I have gotta give Azim huge props on how well his tournies are. I posted it elsewhere, but this man runs a clean operation, with good play, good structure and good dealers. if you're going to go to B&M tournies, you must go to his.
all_aces
This is a fine call.... you have 12 clean outs (45-55 dog) and are getting 2 to 1 on the call. ...taking this into consideration... this was a great opportunity to accomplish your goal!!
Nothing makes being late OK more than 2g in your pocket!!
As for the flush draw hand, this is a good call I think. They key here is that you're getting just about the right odds to call with only a flush draw (i.e. 9 outs), and you have decided that you are probably in better shape than that.
Your analysis that your opponent probably does not have a monster (i.e. probably not two pair or a set) gives you a 12-out draw (as Mickey Holdem mentioned), which is a +EV play getting ~2:1 from the pot.*
Also importantly, you put your opponent on having no significant redraw. If the opposite was true (say, your opponent has flopped a set), the original ~2:1 call on a 9-out draw becomes significantly -EV.
Tipping the dealers is a complicated and highly personal issue I think.
[Long discussion of dealer tipping follows... you can skip the rest of this post if you're not interested.]
As for tipping the dealers, IMO, it's important to know how much the dealers are being paid for the tournament aside from the dealer tokes. Sometimes dealers work for tips only, and sometimes the dealers are paid some portion of the tournament fees. I have given tips anywhere from 0% in a case where the dealers were paid a portion of the entry fees as a "tip" which I thought was fair payment for their work, to +infinity% in a case where I did not make the money, I knew all the dealers personally, and they seemed to get stiffed by some of the top money winners when the dealers were working for tips only.
Ultimately, I think the tournament director ends up having a lot to do with whether or not the dealers are treated fairly (or perhaps overtipped in the odd case) in terms of the tipping. A simple general announcement** at the beginning of the tournament of how the dealers will be compensated from the tournament fees (even if not at all) would go a long way IMO.
Good dealers provide an extremely valuable service, and should be paid fairly for their work, but often the players aren't given quite enough information to determine what "fairly" means.
A quick and dirty method you could use (in a case where dealers are being paid by tips only) is:
1. I think the dealers should make about $X per hour of dealing.
2. The dealers worked about Y table-hours. A table-hour is one table, and therefore one dealer***, operating for one hour. Note that tables in tournaments break and recombine, so Y is often a little tricky to compute. An easy rough estimate might be Y = (original number of tables) * (total length of tournament) / 2.
3. I won a fraction Z of the prize pool.
4. My dealer toke should be X*Y*Z.
Perhaps a numerical example would be useful. This is just a cooked up example, so lets not debate about if these numbers are fair or not.
Say you decided that X = $10/hour was fair, it was a 6 hour tournament, and there were 8 tables to begin with. You got 1st place which was 25% of the prize pool. Your dealer toke could be about 10*(6*8/2)*(1/4) = $60.
This might seem a little low ($7.50 per dealer for 6 hours work??), but don't forget:
1. You need 8 dealers at the beginning of the tournament, but when tables collapse, some dealers will no longer be dealing, so "6 hours work" is not accurate.
2. Your toke should represent only 25% of the total toke.
The idea is that if everyone did this (and had the same X and Y values), then the dealers would actually get $X per hour of dealing.
ScottyZ
*Of course, an additional question to consider is, "Do you mind the variance of this play?" As you mentioned, losing this hand leaves you pretty much crippled. However, with the oppressive blinds, and significant payout for the top 2 spots, I would have made the call myself here.
**Although, sometimes that darn Criminal Code can make these sorts of announcements "complicated".
***The actual dealers may change tables, take breaks, etc. This isn't important to the calculation, as long as all the dealers deal about the same total amount of time.
No time to reply to he hands, but hopefully I can do that later.
Cheers
Magi
LOL. Man, you sound like Skansky! You should write "The Theory of Dealer Toking."
Great posts,
Phil
I'll order one and send one to all my closest poker buddies.
Some great hands covered in those posts.
I had the same situation a while back where I couldn't remember all the details and said 'I should take notes'. Problem is, when you start, you don't think you're going to win it all so you don't see the need for note taking. But if you take notes, are you telling everyone else you're planning on winning? Then they'll rib you when you bust out. You just can't win.
Great come from behind story.
You had a great read on the 56s story and made a beautiful bluff. I sometimes wonder if showing at that point would put the guy over the edge. The issue with that is you might get people calling you later on when you don't want them to.
Your call with A4s was a bit risky but worthwhile. It set you up to win it all.
I think the tip was a bit generous but when you've got that much cash, you can afford to toss it around a bit. You definitely want to avoid looking cheap but you also don't want to feel pressured to pay more than you feel they deserve. I have the feeling Azim pays the dealers pretty well.
Heartfelt congratulations. It is always inspiring to know that someone you've played against has had a big win. I hope I'm there one day, too. Sure, I'm a bit jealous...
Whats wrong with having notes from a losing session? It is probably more beneficial to be able to reflect on a losing session then a winning one..
I took notes for the first time last week at a B&M limit game and I felt a little silly doing it but being able to look back at the hands that I won and lost with was very interesting. I do not play much LM ring games and I was amazed at the hands that I won with since I would be throwing the same hands away playing NL tourneys..