Collusion in the casino...

johnnyfry2

Hello all,

This is my first post to this forum, I have lurked for awhile. I had to post this and get responses from some of you fellow Canucks.

I am playing in a $5/10 game the other day and two players were sitting beside each other and obviously colluding. Anytime the guy in seat 4 would raise, his partner in seat 3 would reraise when it came to him, #4 would then cap. This went for good hands preflop and even moreso good flops. A couple of times we were able to see their cards to the end and of course one guy would have his fh while the other player would have low pair with obviously no business re raising.

My question, how many of you have seen this in the casinos and how did you deal with it? I was particularly upset when one hand I had an open-ended straight draw and continued to get reraised by them both...I had to fold as I didn't want to spend $40 to see the last card. I told both of them it was obvious they were colluding and the dealer just sat there. Another player supported me askibng why one guy was reraising (these weak players actually went to the river so we saw one guys bluff cards) but of course the dealer did nothing further. Outside of leaving the table what coudl I do?

Any responses would be appreciated. Thanks.

Johnnyfry

GTA Poker

If they are both involved in a showdown have them show their cards and call the floor over.

More easily, change tables.

magithighs

I don't have much B&M experience, so I'm not sure about the "official" way to deal with this. I think you might want to discretely go to the washroom and on your way back as the floor manager to remedy the situation. Problem with that -- the cheaters have shown a disregard for rules, and you may put yourself in physical jeopardy.

Three effective ways to deal with it.

1) You know they are in cahoots. You're getting 2 to 1 for your great hands. Drop any drawing hand (unless it's the nut draw and there are multiple players) and bet up the made hands -- pre-flop and flop. This approach is great to make allot of money, but will also lose you money. So if variance is not your game, then I wouldn't recommend this approach.

2) Table change. If everyone leaves the table, it doesn't leave them much to win.

3) Leave the casino.

Cheers
Magi

GBHShftMgr

Hi Johnny,

Don't know what Casino you were playing in, nor does it really matter. In my Casino the dealers and supervisors are all over that kind of stuff. A quiet word to one of the supervisors and a surveillance camera will immediately go on the players involved and their play will be monitored. We have barred players, even charged players for cheat at play (on very rare occaisons, require absolute rock hard proof) or in cases of suspicion only we have separated the players. A Casino cannot allow collusion or even the perception of collusion. A quiet word to a suit will resolve the problem, furthermore players should not tolerate that kind of activity but again a quiet word off of the table is the prudent way to go.

Dave Scharf

You know, GBH, your avatar actually looks like you. Kewl.

Collusion is difficult to catch and difficult to prove. Moreoever, sometimes what looks like collusion is just two friends goofing around. I am known to play in the odd "martini game" in which you can be sure that there will be a lot of unwarranted raising. It's high variance and a lot of fun, but to the seven players at the table who don't know the three of us who are drunk, it might look like collusion.

That having been said, GBH's suggestion is spot on: Mention you suspicions discretely to the floor.

GBHShftMgr

LOL Dave, how are you doing dude? Drop me a line please, hope you still have my email addy.

Cheers,

Lee

dl_brook

A note of my own on collusion - as difficult as it is to prove, players are on their own to police the issue, in Ontario at least. The reason being that there are VERY few experienced dealers who would be able to recognize collusion, and if they are able to it's because most of them are players themselves.

In Ontario casinos advancement to Supervisor is relatively quick and if you're a good dealer you generally make the next promotional step, letting a green, freshly-trained dealer to take their place. Spotting collusion is difficult to teach, especially when training courses cover the rules and procedures, NOT advanced tactics like exposing cheaters.

Of course, like Dave mentioned players must be careful not to overreact. Not every case of raise/re-raise between buddies is evidence of collusion. Even when your concerns are brought to a Supervisor or Manager's attention they will be cautious in reacting to it, since often they too are untrained in detecting it.

Bottom line - move tables or casinos. There is little other recourse or justice available.

ScottyZ

dl_brook wrote:

Not every case of raise/re-raise between buddies is evidence of collusion.

Good point. Further to this, not every effective form of collusion involves abnormal/excessive raising and re-raising between the colluding players. And even if a collusion strategy does involve some raising, sensible players (i.e. those who want to minimize their chances of being detected) will not go overboard with jamming the pot. A single well-placed out of line raise here and there can easily get the job done.

GBHShftMgr wrote:

We have barred players, even charged players for cheat at play...

Intersting point. It's a little known fact that cheating at poker is a criminal offence (Criminal Code, Sec. 209), even if the poker (or whatever) game itself is otherwise legal.

ScottyZ