Hand I just played wanna hear some thoughts.

betrthanphil

So here is the hand, I just thought these were really sick spots. Ill explain my complete thinking after. Also want thoughts on my lead on the flop.

PokerStars Game #58995912370: Tournament #411011254, $150+$12 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (350/700) - 2011/03/10 19:15:11 ET
Table '411011254 5' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: mezvinsm (50854 in chips)
Seat 2: Konigsbote (12121 in chips)
Seat 3: Grizzlypower (23136 in chips)
Seat 4: uaredead lol (17183 in chips)
Seat 5: Peetoon (29717 in chips)
Seat 6: theweakest (35010 in chips)
Seat 7: slonic009 (26078 in chips)
Seat 8: kirik05 (35630 in chips)
Seat 9: BetrThanPhil (41903 in chips)
mezvinsm: posts the ante 85
Konigsbote: posts the ante 85
Grizzlypower: posts the ante 85
uaredead lol: posts the ante 85
Peetoon: posts the ante 85
theweakest: posts the ante 85
slonic009: posts the ante 85
kirik05: posts the ante 85
BetrThanPhil: posts the ante 85
BetrThanPhil: posts small blind 350
mezvinsm: posts big blind 700
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [Ah Js]
Konigsbote: folds
Grizzlypower: folds
uaredead lol: folds
Peetoon: folds
theweakest: raises 1075 to 1775
slonic009: folds
kirik05: folds
BetrThanPhil: raises 2340 to 4115
mezvinsm: raises 3885 to 8000
theweakest: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls 3885
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8s 6s]
BetrThanPhil: bets 4855
mezvinsm: raises 37914 to 42769 and is all-in
BetrThanPhil: calls 28963 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (8951) returned to mezvinsm
*** TURN *** [Jc 8s 6s] [Th]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 8s 6s Th] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BetrThanPhil: shows [Ah Js] (a pair of Jacks)
mezvinsm: shows [As Kd] (high card Ace)
BetrThanPhil collected 86176 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 86176 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 8s 6s Th 7c]
Seat 1: mezvinsm (big blind) showed [As Kd] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: Konigsbote folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Grizzlypower folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: uaredead lol folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Peetoon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: theweakest folded before Flop
Seat 7: slonic009 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: kirik05 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: BetrThanPhil (small blind) showed [Ah Js] and won (86176) with a pair of Jacks

Also 71 left, 63 make money.

Unknown

my thought is we almost have a real poker forum here....

Unknown

I think i actually get it. having to call a min 4bet with ajo sucks though i think, but i think thats a perfect example of what a flop donk bet should be used for....and ya when he jams the flop he's so likely drawing very thin....

betrthanphil

I just thought that he thought my 3 bet was more of a sick spot then an actual hand, which made me think that he had an even sicker spot to make the 4 bet.

Unknown

betrthanphil wrote: »

I just thought that he thought my 3 bet was more of a sick spot then an actual hand, which made me think that he had an even sicker spot to make the 4 bet.

did you type in the chat box after...."ak huh? a little lite don't you think?"...

betrthanphil

lol yeah I missed the needle on that one haha.

Vekked

Need some reads on the dynamic b/c this obv has a lot to do with that. It does seem like a good spot to cold 4-bet light but I think that makes a better case for jamming AJ or 5-betting than flatting, just because AJ (especially off suit) plays about the worst it can vs. his value range, and if he's polarized here it doesn't actually play well against his overall range at all (either his hands dominate yours like AQ+/JJ+, maybe TT, or his hands are low and live. If he's not polarized he will have some weaker Ax and Jx but I'm still not sure it makes AJ a call here). The thing is with AJ we miss like 2/3 of the time and have no back door draws and stuff, and we're out of position with a couple pots to play. If we were suited I might call more often, and I'd definitely call given the odds with something like 86s if I had it for w/e reason. Just calling w/ a hand like AJo vs. a 4-bet is like calling an EP open with KJo, it just doesn't play well at all and has more reverse implied odds than anything.

So yea imo if you think he's light just cram him pre and put him in a retarded spot with AQo or another AJ if he has it.

Post flop I'd need tendencies again to tell if the lead is profitable or if the logic behind it is good, it's impossible to tell in a vacuum since generally c/r > leading on account of people c-betting too often. One he shoves def call, especially given the board texture.

GTA Poker

Is it just me or is that a terrible 4 bet size with AK in that spot?

Vekked

GTA Poker wrote: »

Is it just me or is that a terrible 4 bet size with AK in that spot?

Far from terrible. I wouldn't go more than 9k ever. It doesn't matter that he has AK, his sizing should be the same with his entire range. AK is likely them bottom of this range as far as value goes, so even though he's giving good odds for people to continue with hands vs. Exactly AK, they're making a mistake vs. JJ-AA which are also in his range.

JimmyHo

You call 11BB pre-flop out of position with AJoff and seriously dominated, hit one your three outers on the flop, and that's some sort of high level thinking??

What do you do if its an:

- Ace high flop?
- King high flop?
- Queen high flop?
- 10 high flop, etc.?

If you bet the same amount and he pushes, does he still look like an idiot?

Unknown

pokerJAH wrote: »

You call 11BB pre-flop out of position with AJoff and seriously dominated, hit one your three outers on the flop, and that's some sort of high level thinking??

What do you do if its an:

- Ace high flop?
- King high flop?
- Queen high flop?
- 10 high flop, etc.?

If you bet the same amount and he pushes, does he still look like an idiot?

at what point do you stray from the line he took?

GTA Poker

Vekked wrote: »

Far from terrible. I wouldn't go more than 9k ever. It doesn't matter that he has AK, his sizing should be the same with his entire range. AK is likely them bottom of this range as far as value goes, so even though he's giving good odds for people to continue with hands vs. Exactly AK, they're making a mistake vs. JJ-AA which are also in his range.

Well, convince me...I don`t play NL MTTs almost ever, but if there isn`t much history with these 2 players then betting the same with his entire range isn`t as much of a factor is it?

Wouldn't it be better to bet an amount that either takes it down right there or makes it a huge error to call with KQ, AT-AQ and any pair?

Why would a pot-sized reraise be such a mistake -- is it somehow more exploitable?

Does risking his whole stack post-flop not outweigh balancing his bet sizing and risking his entire tournament vs increasing his stack by 15% and taking it down preflop?

Assigning him a range how often is it good to get it all in with AJ post flop? Without history my thinking is his range is (generously) AJ+, 88+ although I lean much more towards AK, TT+ vs an unknown in this spot...without doing the math I assume that getting it in post flop vs his range isn't great.

betrthanphil

pokerJAH wrote: »

You call 11BB pre-flop out of position with AJoff and seriously dominated, hit one your three outers on the flop, and that's some sort of high level thinking??

What do you do if its an:

- Ace high flop?
- King high flop?
- Queen high flop?
- 10 high flop, etc.?

If you bet the same amount and he pushes, does he still look like an idiot?

Cant go result oriented because he ended up having me dominated, I think there are a lot of hands he would 4 bet with. He was a very aggressive player who seemed to pick spots very well. Thats what I like to do and I know if he had some other hands like mid suited connectors he would do the same thing there. Its a level on another level. I ended up out flopping him and getting him to commit his stack, which was lucky of course.

I do see your point vekked, 5 betting might have been better option here. kind of put myself in a tough spot by calling. On the flop I think the bet is good as i get a lot of hands to shove on me. So Im never folding after seeing that flop.

GTA Poker

betrthanphil wrote: »

Cant go result oriented because he ended up having me dominated, I think there are a lot of hands he would 4 bet with. He was a very aggressive player who seemed to pick spots very well. Thats what I like to do and I know if he had some other hands like mid suited connectors he would do the same thing there. Its a level on another level. I ended up out flopping him and getting him to commit his stack, which was lucky of course.

I do see your point vekked, 5 betting might have been better option here. kind of put myself in a tough spot by calling. On the flop I think the bet is good as i get a lot of hands to shove on me. So Im never folding after seeing that flop.

So you give reads after the discussion? What's the point of posting without almost all of the info relating to the hand?

betrthanphil

Forgot to add that part originally, was playing and stuff, just wanted to hear general thoughts as I was having a discussion with roomate about it

jdAA88

With your read on villain I def agree with Vekked that 5bet/jamming is better than flatting.
As played I like the lead, induces him to spazz out with worse which he ended up doing.

Vekked

GTA Poker wrote: »

Well, convince me...I don`t play NL MTTs almost ever, but if there isn`t much history with these 2 players then betting the same with his entire range isn`t as much of a factor is it?

At this level it's always important to balance to some degree. In this spot the reason we're making it this size as opposed to bigger is that if we make it any bigger it's so obvious we're never bluffing and we'll only get action from JJ+/AK, and we'll induce less spazz. This size is meant to look like we're bluffing when we're not so people will shove over us still. This is about as big as we can make it to still get action from the original raiser.

Wouldn't it be better to bet an amount that either takes it down right there or makes it a huge error to call with KQ, AT-AQ and any pair?

How is it not already a huge error for someone to call for 3-outs vs. AK with this size? We're giving them 3:1 and they need like 4.5:1 or something to hit their 3-outer if they play perfectly post flop.

Why would a pot-sized reraise be such a mistake -- is it somehow more exploitable?

Yes, they'll just fold AQ/AJ like every time and turns our hand face up.

Does risking his whole stack post-flop not outweigh balancing his bet sizing and risking his entire tournament vs increasing his stack by 15% and taking it down preflop?

I don't even want to get into weighing benefits of risking your tournament life vs. winning a smaller amount of chips. Basically, and most high stakes MTT players agree, you should be looking to maximize value in 99% of spots instead of worrying about tourney life unless the ICM implications are high.

Assigning him a range how often is it good to get it all in with AJ post flop? Without history my thinking is his range is (generously) AJ+, 88+ although I lean much more towards AK, TT+ vs an unknown in this spot...without doing the math I assume that getting it in post flop vs his range isn't great.

I'm not sure what part you're talking about with assigning him these ranges. But basically if we called with AJ pre-flop we gotta get it in here for the sake of consistency in our line since our call pre should indicate we think we're ahead of his range.

djgolfcan

I like the thinking going on in this thread. However, does our thinking need to change at different buy in levels ?

I am almost certain that in a $5, $11, or even $26, players are not thinking about, oh, he just flatted my 3-bet preflop, he must have JJ+ - They are thinking, I have AK, ship it, woohoo. J high flop, oh well I have two overs, I can make him fold if I shove and if not I might hit.

I know that some do think on different levels and you need to get reads on who they are, OPR helps to see if they are regulars.

For me, in my limited experience, a 4-bet usually indicates a monster (JJ+/AK) and I would fold pre-flop almost every time. Unless I had a read that vilain was a total spaz or on tilt.