marked cards at RiverRock
Date Posted: 1/4/2005 1:49:00 AM
I found this post on rgp.
While i havent had any experience with marked cards at the river rock, Has anyone else??
BEWARE OF CHEATING IN CANADA'S LARGEST POKER ROOM!
Below is a email I sent to the BC Gaming Policy and Enforcement Branch
Dear Sir
I was playing poker at the Richmond casino at approximately 7pm on Jan
3, 2005. I was playing at table P16, a $2/4 limit holdum game. I noticed
the cards were in poor condition and realized that I was able to
identify a card I had held previously just by looking at the back of the
card. I know it as Qd just by looking at the back of the card due to
wear markings. I mentioned this to the dealer and requested a change of
cards.
I examined the cards and very quickly noticed a pattern of "wear"
marking on high cards/ face cards. I was able to consistently look at
the back of a card and tell if it was a high card based on the "wear" on
the card. Many years ago I had an interest in card tricks and have "
marked " decks myself, therefore this was not difficult for me to see.
I noted this to the floor manager and asked to discuss the issue with a
manager. Casino staff consistently said that the marking were the result
of the automatic shuffling machine but this was not consistent with my
examination of the cards. High cards had a consistent trend of wear that
was not present on most low cards. I suspect a player had been using a
rough surface and had rubbed the cards to make these markings. This is a
very common form of cheating.
I spoke to the Casino Manager. His position was the cards were not
marked, that the wear on them was only the result of the shuffling
machines. He made this decision without having given the cards much
examination. I demonstrated to him and some of his staff that I could
identify high cards by looking only at the back of the cards. During my
ad hoc demonstration I was correct 12 times out of 15 times, identifying
high cards only looking at the wear patterns on the back of the cards.
The casino manager's response was that he didn't think that in a holdum
poker game marked cards would give anyone an advantage. I cant believed
a casino manger would say that to me ................ either he thinks I
am a fool or he should not be managing a poker room!
When I was talking to the casino manger his demeanor was quite gruff and
somewhat intimidating. His opening line to conversation was " so you
want to talk to me" and he had two young big tough looking security
staff standing looking at me in an intimidating manner. I am a soft
overweight "married with kids" 44 year old guy........................
I had the strong sense that they were trying to intimidate me into
forgetting about the incident. Frankly this is what angered me the most.
I thought they would be concerned about a marked deck being on their
poker table but they tried to make me feel like I'd offended "Tony
Soprano" and should forget about it.................... the casino
manager kept looking at me in an angry manner saying " so what do you
want"
I really don't like to be treated like a fool when I may have been
cheated and then bullied by a bunch of tough looking guys. Part of my
reason for wanting to make this as public as possible is people in the
gaming industry have a reputation for being a bit rough and I am a
little worried about possible repercussions of upsetting them. Don't
they have to answer to government agencies?
The casino manager continued to deny there was anything wrong with the
cards despite may demonstration. I asked if I could examine the cards
further and demonstrate to his satisfaction that the marking would give
a player an advantage. He told me " that's not going to happen" I asked
if I could put my initials on some of the marked cards to be sure they
were preserved. He refused with a "dismissive smirk" I am certain in my
heart that they will destroy those cards now as soon as possible.
Prior to my noticing the marked deck of cards we had some very unusual
behavior on table P16. One player "saw the flop" every time 15 times in
a row, raised pre flop 10 out of the 15 times and reprised 8 times. He
was doing this very aggressive play with what were often later to be
shown a quite weak cards (A5, J2). He was seated at position 5 and had
at least one friend at the table in seat 7. Please examine the video
tape from table P16 for a few hours prior to 7pm and see if a pattern of
suspicious behavior emerges. I do not want to accuse the young player in
question of being a cheat, he may just be a thrill seeking erratic kid
having fun. However having a marked deck on a table does raise a concern
worth review and his play was the most aggressive I have ever seen with
such weak cards...................... However I am willing to assume
that the cards could have been marked by another player earlier.
The casino did not express any interest in either investigating this
matter or acknowledging a problem may have existed. Casino staff and
management attitude was consistently denial and minimizing the issue
from everyone I spoke with. It was implied that I would not be welcome
in the poker room again and since they have a virtual monopoly on low
limit poker this would be something I regret.......................
however I really don't want to play in a room where cheating is given a
blind eye.
Does a casino have any duty to try and prevent cheating in a poker room?
I don't care about the $100 I lost in the poker game while we were
playing with a marked deck. In fact if the casino did offer to refund my
money I would ask that it be donated to charity. I only want to be
treated fairly in a non intimidating manner and be confident that gaming
in BC is managed with integrity.
I found this post on rgp.
While i havent had any experience with marked cards at the river rock, Has anyone else??
BEWARE OF CHEATING IN CANADA'S LARGEST POKER ROOM!
Below is a email I sent to the BC Gaming Policy and Enforcement Branch
Dear Sir
I was playing poker at the Richmond casino at approximately 7pm on Jan
3, 2005. I was playing at table P16, a $2/4 limit holdum game. I noticed
the cards were in poor condition and realized that I was able to
identify a card I had held previously just by looking at the back of the
card. I know it as Qd just by looking at the back of the card due to
wear markings. I mentioned this to the dealer and requested a change of
cards.
I examined the cards and very quickly noticed a pattern of "wear"
marking on high cards/ face cards. I was able to consistently look at
the back of a card and tell if it was a high card based on the "wear" on
the card. Many years ago I had an interest in card tricks and have "
marked " decks myself, therefore this was not difficult for me to see.
I noted this to the floor manager and asked to discuss the issue with a
manager. Casino staff consistently said that the marking were the result
of the automatic shuffling machine but this was not consistent with my
examination of the cards. High cards had a consistent trend of wear that
was not present on most low cards. I suspect a player had been using a
rough surface and had rubbed the cards to make these markings. This is a
very common form of cheating.
I spoke to the Casino Manager. His position was the cards were not
marked, that the wear on them was only the result of the shuffling
machines. He made this decision without having given the cards much
examination. I demonstrated to him and some of his staff that I could
identify high cards by looking only at the back of the cards. During my
ad hoc demonstration I was correct 12 times out of 15 times, identifying
high cards only looking at the wear patterns on the back of the cards.
The casino manager's response was that he didn't think that in a holdum
poker game marked cards would give anyone an advantage. I cant believed
a casino manger would say that to me ................ either he thinks I
am a fool or he should not be managing a poker room!
When I was talking to the casino manger his demeanor was quite gruff and
somewhat intimidating. His opening line to conversation was " so you
want to talk to me" and he had two young big tough looking security
staff standing looking at me in an intimidating manner. I am a soft
overweight "married with kids" 44 year old guy........................
I had the strong sense that they were trying to intimidate me into
forgetting about the incident. Frankly this is what angered me the most.
I thought they would be concerned about a marked deck being on their
poker table but they tried to make me feel like I'd offended "Tony
Soprano" and should forget about it.................... the casino
manager kept looking at me in an angry manner saying " so what do you
want"
I really don't like to be treated like a fool when I may have been
cheated and then bullied by a bunch of tough looking guys. Part of my
reason for wanting to make this as public as possible is people in the
gaming industry have a reputation for being a bit rough and I am a
little worried about possible repercussions of upsetting them. Don't
they have to answer to government agencies?
The casino manager continued to deny there was anything wrong with the
cards despite may demonstration. I asked if I could examine the cards
further and demonstrate to his satisfaction that the marking would give
a player an advantage. He told me " that's not going to happen" I asked
if I could put my initials on some of the marked cards to be sure they
were preserved. He refused with a "dismissive smirk" I am certain in my
heart that they will destroy those cards now as soon as possible.
Prior to my noticing the marked deck of cards we had some very unusual
behavior on table P16. One player "saw the flop" every time 15 times in
a row, raised pre flop 10 out of the 15 times and reprised 8 times. He
was doing this very aggressive play with what were often later to be
shown a quite weak cards (A5, J2). He was seated at position 5 and had
at least one friend at the table in seat 7. Please examine the video
tape from table P16 for a few hours prior to 7pm and see if a pattern of
suspicious behavior emerges. I do not want to accuse the young player in
question of being a cheat, he may just be a thrill seeking erratic kid
having fun. However having a marked deck on a table does raise a concern
worth review and his play was the most aggressive I have ever seen with
such weak cards...................... However I am willing to assume
that the cards could have been marked by another player earlier.
The casino did not express any interest in either investigating this
matter or acknowledging a problem may have existed. Casino staff and
management attitude was consistently denial and minimizing the issue
from everyone I spoke with. It was implied that I would not be welcome
in the poker room again and since they have a virtual monopoly on low
limit poker this would be something I regret.......................
however I really don't want to play in a room where cheating is given a
blind eye.
Does a casino have any duty to try and prevent cheating in a poker room?
I don't care about the $100 I lost in the poker game while we were
playing with a marked deck. In fact if the casino did offer to refund my
money I would ask that it be donated to charity. I only want to be
treated fairly in a non intimidating manner and be confident that gaming
in BC is managed with integrity.
Comments
do you know the username of the person who posted the above on rgp
and/or if there are any updates on this matter
just curious
the marks i notice look more like slight dents than anything else, but it would be difficult to see from a distance (if someone was trying to determine what card you had)....as for basic wear and tear, i think a lot of cards just get scuffed over time....and if its any consolation to this person, river rock switched all their decks last month, so it appears wholesale deck changes will be occuring at least semi-regularily
the response from the floor person is somewhat disturbing though, i wonder which person it was....
I wonder if they change the decks for tourney's..hmmm
There are tonnes of players who players there from 9-5 everyday who I could see taking major advantage of this.... and they probably do..
Interesting post though
Plus even if the cards are marked how are you going to be able to see the marks on the other players cards if they are seated on the opposite side of the table?
And finally can't you request a new deck at any time?
As for the kid it seems he either was playing at a weak table and was scaring off every one by raising often or didn't know how to play and just got lucky.