QQ oh how I hate this hand!
I have already asked the question but here is a variation of it.
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=2458
Another BM tournament.
Blinds are 200/400, rebuy period has just ended. On the button I have QQ. UTG raises it to 1200 (loose agressive player), chip leader raises it to 3000 (no good read on this player as he had only played a few hands and was very quiet at the table. He got the chip lead on slow playing 1- a floped set in the SB, and next hand flops a straight). I had only 3800 in chips.
What should I have done?
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=2458
Another BM tournament.
Blinds are 200/400, rebuy period has just ended. On the button I have QQ. UTG raises it to 1200 (loose agressive player), chip leader raises it to 3000 (no good read on this player as he had only played a few hands and was very quiet at the table. He got the chip lead on slow playing 1- a floped set in the SB, and next hand flops a straight). I had only 3800 in chips.
What should I have done?
Comments
Red
UTG raises concern me. Either the guy is very aggressive or has a pretty good hand. It appears the chip leader had a read on him and thought his own hand was better. What was his position? If he was in late position, he may have raised without much of a hand, merely the feeling that with all those chips, he could push people around.
You have over 9xBB left. No huge rush to get more chips. So if you wanted to sit this one out, I wouldn't blame you. On the other hand, you've got a great hand in great position so I'm leaning more on pushing them all in right here. Chances are good the UTG will fold and you'll be heads up with the chip leader with a very good shot at more than doubling.
So, tell me - what did you do? What happened?
Oh this is sure stirring up some ghosts for me
She said "There's one thing you've got to learn
Is not to be afraid of it."
I said "No, I like it, I like it, it's good."
She said "You like it now
But you'll learn to love is later."
"Somewhere down that crazy river", Robbie Robertson
I keep adding to my music list! The chip leader's range of hands that makes this raise is quite large. You're a big favourite to many of those hands. It's not a minimum raise, so it's more likley he doesn't have aces or kings or even AK. So, only the UTG to worry about. Unfortunately, with 10BB you really don't have many options. Best situation is they both have their cards tied up. I'm not waiting here and pushing in.
chip leader was next to UTG.
I folded for two reasons:
1- Being to chicken to leave the tournament early
2- The chip leader seemed very confident and would have had to call 800 more chips
UTG folded with out even blinking.
In hind site, I should have pushed all in, early or not. QQ has hurt me alot in the resent past! I always find a way to screw it up.
gotta ask yourself If you was first to act is it worth your going all in and how many callers would you want 1 2 or none?
Second you not only have to beat one guy here but 2! Chance of over cards and over pairs is higher... You only have a read on one so is it worth the over call..
Short stacked I say push.. got spot to triple up...
If you got time why risk it..
I will throw another option into the mix: call.
If you move in you WILL be called (it's only another 800). Call. If an ace comes on the flop you might escape with 800. If not, you will move in your last 800.
The disadvantage to calling instead of moving in your last 800 is that you are tempting the SB to stay for the fight. But, he is certain to stay with AA or KK and almost certain to stay with AK which are the only things that you really fear in his hand. Anything else you don't really hate. In fact, if you can lure him in with a hand like 9-9 so much the better for you.
If you believe you have a skill overlay then give yourself as many chances to make good decisions as possible. If you believe the other player is superior to you, then move in and cross your fingers. Give him the decision.
Dave
As an average player who is chip leader,
a) what hands would you isolate the SB LAG with?
b) would you smooth call with AA or KK? (note, I'm thinking as an average player)
c) would you fire into just about any flop with 3K invested and only 800 more to bet?
I really have trouble with calling, as I really believe I have the best hand most of the time when the Chip Leader is trying to isolate. I don't think 2BB will make any difference in the rest of the hand and I don't want to give any false hope to the SB.
Now, if it was a medium stack instead of the chip leader making the raise, I might consider calling, only because 2BB would mean much more to a medium stack. In that situation, I'd also strongly consider folding.
Cheers
Magi
No. I think the "average player" will re-raise 2 UTG with these two hands.
No. I have position. I will be last to act. I will *probably* simply look to check this down. At least I will check the flop if it is checked to me since I can expect to get called by A-K. On the turn, I may fire. Since, if it checks to me I will strongly believe my QQ is good and I am happy to (1) add fold eqiuty or (2) Get another 800 of my opponents chips into the pot.
In all likelihood I am going to get my 800 into the pot. But, I am trying to play the hand in such a way that I will survive if I am beat. Flat call and the flop comes A-K-x and the chip leaders moves you in are you gong to call? Nope. I'm gone. And, I live to fight again another day.
Consider the UTG raiser's situation. If I move in pre-flop then he is facing a call of 2600 into a pot of 9400. If I simply call, he faces a call of 1800 into a pot of 7800. (in both cases I am assuming that the chip leader will call) Not a big difference. There is, I admit, the psychological difference of an all-in re-re-raise if you move in and that makes your hand look very strong. But, a flat call looks pretty strong too. In my opinion, he is not calling the raise without a legit hand -- no matter whether I raise or call.
What would you do if the player moves in on a flop without an A or K, and say no flush draw? Would you call thinking you probably have the best hand?
Too often I don't give enough credit for a legitimate hand and get myself into trouble. With many players to act, the range may be even narrower. But I like this range.
I was thinking, what would you do as the chip leader (average abilities). I'm thinking he fires into the pot, regardless of the flop. He knows he must call if he checks, and he *might* get a fold by betting. IMO, it's a win, win by betting. Ok, I think I'm streching here that an average player will bet regardless. But I can see no other move by the chip-leader.
I've done this in the late stages of a tournament. Both players know they must not bust out and checking it down is not a horrible approach. But this isn't the late stages and the chip leader has some chips to burn. Unless he was on a total bluff, there's no way he's checking it twice (I know it's Christmas and all, but...)
This is why the chip leader should fire out at any flop. This way he wins with a winning hand and a flop with an ace.
As the guy with QQ, I know it's very unlikely I'm folding. However, I want to make it clear that there's no way I'm folding. Sometimes we need to prevent others from making mistakes and I want to ensure the SB does not join the pot unless he's got aces or kings. If he does, then he raises all-in, and it's quite possible he gets the chip leader to fold. By raising all-in you're almost ensuring you have one opponent. I think that's the key to this hand.
Surviving with 800 is just delaying the innevitable. I have come back from 3/4 of a BB to win a reasonably large tournament, so never say die is a good thing. But, I think the 800 is better spent pre-flop here.
And you are correct. Assuming I have saved my last 800 by simply calling I may still have to call. It is going to be a judgement call. If the flop comes all below a Q I am calling for sure. If there is an ace I might fold. If there is a king I will probably call.
This will, really, be about what box you have the big stack in. Is he capable of betting out with nothing? If he is, I have to call my measley 800. If he is not, then the limp is a good play.
The point is, I think, that you should ALWAYS consider all your options. And, wherever possible, leave yourself an escape route.
Dave's no-limit principle #1 (things are always more believable if they have names): Only bet enough to get the job done, and no more.
My thinking is that the extra 800 will not make a difference to the original raiser. And, you will be called by the big stack. So, what job are you accomplishing? You are getting 800 in with the best of it (if we have the big stack's raising range right) but we are killing ourselves in those cases in which an ace hits the flop.
Similarly, this is an interesting hand because I think that the decisions -- fold, raise, or call -- are all very close. The right decision will clearly depend upon the nature of your two opponents. Put 'em in a box and then put your money where you mouth is. So, if you really believe that the extra 800 will push the original player out, I agree that you should move in pre-flop.
And the result will be the very same as if you have moved in pre-flop, except that you have taken away your escape route.
This is where we disagree. I am not certain as to the size of the buy-in or the overall quality of the field, but I do not believe that in a typical "local tournamet" or small buy-in ($200 or less) online multi-table that the 800 re-re-raise will make a bit of difference to one or two opponents. I also, however, freely admit that I could be wrong. That is the beauty of the game.
Surviving with 800 is much better than being eliminated. This, of course, assumes I have a sufficient instinct to smell that rat if it arrives on the flop. Probably doesn't. 800 is probably going in anyway and the result will probably be the same as if it went in pre-flop.
Dave's no-limit principle #2: A caller with position on you is terrifying.
Agreed. Monkey Man only consider's one course of action, and that thinking usually comes up broke!
Yep, this is where we disagree. I agree that the 800 will not make any difference to the original raisor, even if UTG calls. However, what happens if UTG raises all-in? Now, that makes a big difference to the big-stack. If he knows you're all-in, he must show down the best hand to win. I think he folds everything except KK or AA. Really bad odds when UTG raises all-in, but it's a grip-it-and-rip-it situation with only 10BB left.
If the stack sizes were different and the blinds not rising so quickly (i assumed the blinds were rising quickly based on the stack sizes), I think the decision would be different. I like calling when I'm a little deeper -- say double original stack of 3800, or even if I had 4X the BB left after making the call (say 1600)
Yes, agreed. Unfortunately I don't have enough live experience to smell the rat, and online it's real hard.
I totally agree with the principle. I use it alot against weaker players make raises from middle position with medium stacks. I sometimes call with crap, just to bet if they miss. But I don't think the 800 is putting any fear into a chip leader.