Should I Have Called?
180 player SNG, 19 left, top 18 get paid. Button is tourney chip leader, has been raising and reraising a lot of hands, I wake up with JJ in the SB and this happens.
PokerStars Game #38111274087: Tournament #231753750, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2010/01/13 15:29:41 ET
Table '231753750 10' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Igor964 (12065 in chips)
Seat 3: rackattack21 (7893 in chips)
Seat 4: Peeeedor (40585 in chips)
Seat 5: McAusland (19347 in chips)
Seat 6: staRfish96 (5059 in chips)
Seat 7: Ziseq (12515 in chips)
Seat 8: hanzig (16715 in chips)
Igor964: posts the ante 50
rackattack21: posts the ante 50
Peeeedor: posts the ante 50
McAusland: posts the ante 50
staRfish96: posts the ante 50
Ziseq: posts the ante 50
hanzig: posts the ante 50
McAusland: posts small blind 300
staRfish96: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to McAusland [Jd Jh]
Ziseq: folds
hanzig: folds
Igor964: folds
rackattack21: raises 7243 to 7843 and is all-in
Peeeedor: raises 32692 to 40535 and is all-in
McAusland: ????
I'm pissed off when he does this. Only guy who can bust me. I tank for a while and folded.
staRfish96: folds
Uncalled bet (32692) returned to Peeeedor
*** FLOP *** [3c Ac 5s]
*** TURN *** [3c Ac 5s] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [3c Ac 5s 7d] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rackattack21: shows [7h Th] (a pair of Sevens)
Peeeedor: shows [9d 9h] (a pair of Nines)
Peeeedor collected 16936 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16936 | Rake 0
Board [3c Ac 5s 7d Kd]
Seat 1: Igor964 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: rackattack21 showed [7h Th] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 4: Peeeedor (button) showed [9d 9h] and won (16936) with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: McAusland (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: staRfish96 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Ziseq folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hanzig folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Side note: twit couldn't fold AJo as over cards on the turn and I hit my straight to double thru
Should I have folded at the bubble there?
PokerStars Game #38111274087: Tournament #231753750, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2010/01/13 15:29:41 ET
Table '231753750 10' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Igor964 (12065 in chips)
Seat 3: rackattack21 (7893 in chips)
Seat 4: Peeeedor (40585 in chips)
Seat 5: McAusland (19347 in chips)
Seat 6: staRfish96 (5059 in chips)
Seat 7: Ziseq (12515 in chips)
Seat 8: hanzig (16715 in chips)
Igor964: posts the ante 50
rackattack21: posts the ante 50
Peeeedor: posts the ante 50
McAusland: posts the ante 50
staRfish96: posts the ante 50
Ziseq: posts the ante 50
hanzig: posts the ante 50
McAusland: posts small blind 300
staRfish96: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to McAusland [Jd Jh]
Ziseq: folds
hanzig: folds
Igor964: folds
rackattack21: raises 7243 to 7843 and is all-in
Peeeedor: raises 32692 to 40535 and is all-in
McAusland: ????
I'm pissed off when he does this. Only guy who can bust me. I tank for a while and folded.
staRfish96: folds
Uncalled bet (32692) returned to Peeeedor
*** FLOP *** [3c Ac 5s]
*** TURN *** [3c Ac 5s] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [3c Ac 5s 7d] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rackattack21: shows [7h Th] (a pair of Sevens)
Peeeedor: shows [9d 9h] (a pair of Nines)
Peeeedor collected 16936 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16936 | Rake 0
Board [3c Ac 5s 7d Kd]
Seat 1: Igor964 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: rackattack21 showed [7h Th] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 4: Peeeedor (button) showed [9d 9h] and won (16936) with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: McAusland (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: staRfish96 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Ziseq folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hanzig folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Side note: twit couldn't fold AJo as over cards on the turn and I hit my straight to double thru
Should I have folded at the bubble there?
Comments
ace staring you in the face, you did well throwing them away.
those other 2 are idiots.
Initial shove's range is huge, Pee's range is probably any 2 big cards+, fold seems reasonable here. Any AKQ on that flop would likely mean you are dead in this spot. I'd prob play it the same way.
You could probably get a quantitative answer for when to call and when to fold (based on stack sizes) in this spot using an ICM calculator.
PS with player 1 at 30%, player 2 at 25% and you with JJ gives you 58%
edit- player 1 and 2 having ak and aq respectively still gives you an edge.
seriously? It is a 10 dollar 180man. We fold now and work our way into 10th or 12th...or we double up and go for the win...
Maybe this is why my graph spikes...then trickles..then spikes...then trickles...lol..
But here...for 10 bucks..I don't see value in fighting another hour for 5 or 6 or even 10 positions when we have a perfectly good chance here to double (or more) up...
I just have a thing about 99-JJ when theres 2 ships in front. Id rather not have to fade that much at this point.
For many it is..I feel ranges are wider in these spots..mine certainly are..lol..A leak? Possibly.
the opening all in is 10ish bb. Is his range not huge in c/o? Big stack sees any pair or any ace and he is calling....he needs to iso the blinds though..which he effectively does...
My thought process....
I look down and see JJ...immediately my thoughts say one has a pair and one has an ace...3 pairs beat me. If we don't have both beat, we will very likely beat one of them. If they both have aces (very plausible), I am likely golden..Big stack wins, I get 18th...next. small stack wins...we are in good position to regain chips next hand. I win...WEEEE!!! If, on the off chance (in my mind) we lose to both...oh well. Next.
Where am I failing here...???
Epic_Donk,
I realize that you are a soul reader, but if you could read that an ace was coming on the flop before the cards were dealt, then you should be crushing at online poker!!
On a more serious note, as was stated earlier you only need to beat the small stack to make the money. The range of hands where you are crushed is probably pretty small - I would only think that it is limited to QQ, since with KK or AA the large stack might have just called to try and gain another runner. I would call, since winning would put you in a serious position to take down the whole tournament.
there are a lot of short stacks most likely judging by your chipfort that are going to push soon to put you in the money anyway.
Personally, I don't play worse just 'cause the buy-in is lower. I play to win, regardless.
If you're up against an A, K, and Q (something like K9 vs. AQ vs. JJ), then you're < 50% to win. If you're up against a higher pair and an A, you're pretty much pooched.
As somebody else said, there are lots of small stacks that are going to be shoving; there are going to be lots of opportunities to more safely take chips off small stacks. No point in risking tournament life at this stage when you have lots of chips.
Imo, you're still in a good spot to take down the entire tournament. You don't need to be in 1st of 18 to do that. (At least, I don't)
I don't call it "worse"...I call it adjusting to the game.
No, but it sure helps.
phack....no wonder I suck at holdem......I do the snap call against super agro bigstack 10/10 times (while backflipping into the splitz using double fist pump, while listening to 'Run To The Hills'). There's a tiny chance we're behind bigstack, a good chance we have him crushed (small pair or AX), a good chance we're off to the races (QK, AQ, AK). These seems like a great place to take the chip lead and take over the tourney.
Wetts, please inform us why a good player folds here....need to understand your logic here.
I totally missed that part!! yes!
This too...please..
Think he was noting, that it sounds in your message like you are playing it this way because of the dollar size of the tourney. Think I know what you are saying, just came out wrong. Dollar amount doesn't matter, quality of opponent does.
Yes, my Mother hasn't stopped crying for weeks.
I think the original raisers range is decent (55+, AJ+). definately not ATC.
Plug those numbers into stove. Then consider ICM. Then consider you are in good shape.
I ask this. If youre not folding Jacks in this spot. When are you folding JJ pre?
And: If you never fold JJ Pre - you have a leak.
Hey, she picked me up! That means she calls, not me damnit. I refer you to HM's cougar pic: she's got what she wanted and isn't driving me to wrestling practice. Thus, she calls me
I didn't give ISO's range being that high, hence my thinking....being his super aggro style.....IE. I think we're rarely / never behind him there.....so why not get the chips in? Also, don't care too much about short stacks range, but would agree with you on his.
I have noticed that I don't fold big pairs online preflop too often compared with live....live I feel comfortable at times when I know I'm behind. Online, not so much, hence don't fold as much......ssshhhh.....I can hear the leak.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
I agree, not any two cards as well...I figure top 30%? Stove gives us an edge at player one and two with top 30%. ISO has been raising and reraising lots...99 is a pretty tight range for this is it not?
I guess I need to do some more work with the ICM calculator...
I will and have folded JJ preflop in other situations. I just want to kick myself in the nuts if I fold here still...
I don't interpret "raising and reraising lots" as "pushing behind to isolate lots". Somebody who opens with a raise with more than twice the 2nd-biggest stack, and has a reasonably wide 3-bet range under said circumstances, doesn't mean they're going to buy a shorty insurance on their push lightly. At least, when I'm in the big stack's shoes, I'm not. I agree that 99 would be on the lower end, 'cause I'm not trying to make it easy for a shorty to double-up; with weaker holdings than JJ, I'd much rather call and let others behind me call (and check it down) to optimize the probability of busting shorty from the tourney.
Maybe I'm weird.
I do think that an aggro villain who is opening and 3betting alot of pots isnt super light here - he actually has to show down.
Fair enough...definitely more to think about in that spot.
In saying all this, I would have ss'd the guy by this point (as he was getting aggressive) and realized he was a reg at 180's...and does well...
Would this change my thoughts in the spot? Maybe...I think I would have had to be there...I think I still call here.
I have a problem when I ss and see the shark logo beside their name..this means A:yes, they are good and they have a hand, it also means B: they don't necessarily have a great hand because they know they don't need one in this spot given the probable range of the other player..
Paging AllAces, AllAces, code blue.
Too bad the budget cuts got rid of them .....
great thread, i initial was snap calling, although i am very interested in finding the differences between our games wetts. my trial icm sng wiz expired but can we suggest its likely the big stack would try to trap with qq+
1. Original raiser has >10bb, which leads to...
2. Big stack isn't calling "because he has to because he had odds" or "i was in the blind",
3. From the previous points, big stack here still has to showdown, hence why his range here is probably not that wide.
4. While you might be ahead of most of his iso range, consider not only your cEV, but your $EV in this case would make it a fold
what the heck does those mean in the bold anyway?