An Interesting NL Tournament Hand

Monteroy

I was not involved in it really, but I had a long chat with one of the players about it after. The hand is the following:

PokerStars Game #901367906: Tournament #3535118, Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2004/11/28 - 00:45:51 (ET)
Table '3535118 112' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Monteroy (15790 in chips)
Seat 2: Moe Rawn (26860 in chips)
Seat 3: jennicide (40127 in chips)
Seat 4: TheNorseman (25205 in chips)
Seat 5: Eracer (43098 in chips)
Seat 6: Sentinell (3355 in chips)
Seat 7: pokeravs (33910 in chips)
Seat 8: joeyg1 (8846 in chips)
Seat 9: MADCABBIE (37977 in chips)
Monteroy: posts the ante 50
Moe Rawn: posts the ante 50
jennicide: posts the ante 50
TheNorseman: posts the ante 50
Eracer: posts the ante 50
Sentinell: posts the ante 50
pokeravs: posts the ante 50
joeyg1: posts the ante 50
MADCABBIE: posts the ante 50
Moe Rawn: posts small blind 400
jennicide: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Kh Jc]
TheNorseman: calls 800
Eracer: folds
Sentinell: folds
pokeravs: folds
joeyg1: folds
joeyg1 is sitting out
MADCABBIE: folds
Monteroy: calls 800
Moe Rawn: calls 400
jennicide: checks
*** FLOP *** [6s 9s 7d]
Moe Rawn: checks
jennicide: checks
TheNorseman: bets 1600
Monteroy: folds
Moe Rawn: calls 1600
jennicide: raises 3200 to 4800
TheNorseman: calls 3200
Moe Rawn: folds
*** TURN *** [6s 9s 7d] [Kc]
jennicide: bets 4000
TheNorseman: calls 4000
*** RIVER *** [6s 9s 7d Kc] [Qd]
joeyg1 has returned
jennicide: bets 6400
TheNorseman: calls 6400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jennicide: shows [9c 7s] (two pair, Nines and Sevens)
TheNorseman: shows [Ks Qs] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
TheNorseman collected 35650 from pot

jennicide is among the tournament leaders on Stars and TheNorseman almost never played a hand.

The main debate was between me and jennicide after because jennicide tore into Norse for calling the reraise on the flop instead of folding.

There is no shortage of horrific play on the Pokerstars weekend rebuys (where KQ off and A 6 off and 22 become premium pre flop all in calling hands), but with 2 overcards and a flush draw post flop I didn't see why Norse should fold to a relatively small reraise. Even an all in would be a potential call (though I would likely fold).

jennicide kept calling Norse a calling machine after which he kind of was this hand. I think jennicide was upset to be outdrawn in that way and when it happened to not even be raised (as strange as that sounds as a reason to be upset). Actually I kind of get it, it is frustrating to lose to a player that in the end plays the hand sort of weak which Norse did by not being all in at some point (certainly by the river if not the turn).

As a side note, if anyone has the desire to relive a high school experience of watching a small group of people constantly talk among themselves as if noone else in the world exists in an inappropriate setting (such as a poker table) then I highly suggest sitting at a table with jennicide. Maybe its the pretty blond he has as an icon but that player has a healthy fanclub. It worked out for me when one of his fans (also at the table) called my big raise preflop assuming I must be a bad player for disagreeing with jenni and doubled up my KK with his mighty 78 suited (that helped me get the chips to finish 18th eventually).

How would others have played this hand as the Norse in this case?

Gord

I think that the call is ok...
He's getting the odds to chase the flush, although just barely. I think a call or a fold is acceptable, as for his play on the turn/river, i'm not sure...

Unknown

The play was fine, depending upon what his tournament goal was. If he wants to win the thing, he has to take some big risks along the way.

As for jennicide, I believe that is actually a picture of the player. Or at least, she says it is her when railbirds ask her. I was at a table with her once and she went on and on about how she 'only' made 6 final tables that week, which is when I realized that everything she says translates to 'blah blah me blah blah'.

Similarly, at the 30/60 last night, some dude says to me that he lives just north of Toronto. I ask him if he has snow up there, you know, making the usual poker small talk, and he tells me he owns three condos at Yonge and Empress Walk, out of nowhere. I believe I said 'ok'. Like, we just STARTED chatting. It became clear to me that the only reason he engaged me in conversation in the first place was so he could tell the table that he owns three condos at Yonge and Empress Walk. Whatever makes people feel good about themselves, I guess. (He then proceeded to lose $1200 and leave, but hey, he's got the condos!)

Regards,
all_aces

ScottyZ

It became clear to me that the only reason he engaged me in conversation in the first place was so he could tell the table that he owns three condos at Yonge and Empress Walk.

Pfff. As if that's impressive. I rent an apartment with utilities included, own an Xbox, and have 5 different flavours of pudding in my fridge. I am the greatest.

I've generally enjoyed it when people who are loaded sit at my poker table. In either sense of the word. :cool:

As for the hand, I may have just played it exactly the same against an aggressive player such as jennicide. Not only have I seen jennicide play before, but generally a player going "How can you call whine whine whine" suggests to me that this player is far more aggressive than usual. He/she simply want to try to make the opponent feel stupid for calling his/her aggressive bet/raise, no matter how reasonable the call actually was. (Very reasonable in this case IMO.)

ScottyZ

Monteroy

You bring up a very good point about tournament goals, it's one I have worked on a lot recently and that's a whole other dimension to this hand that was lacking from the Norse's play. I just don't see what his goal was that hand (except to hope to draw to a flush).

I played in yesterday's rebuy and I was upset with how I played because I lost sight of my goals. It was the first hand after the second break and I had 10kish chips (a bit below average), blinds 300/600. I am sb and get 99. All fold to the button goes all in for 1700 , I call but then BB with 13k chips shoves. He had moved to the table recently and I just caved in and folded and he had 33. Button won with A 6 when a 6 hit on river so I would have been at 20k+ if I call and in much better shape. I was kind of happy the 33 did not win that hand I admit .

The guy to my left soon after called a 5k all in pre flop with KJ (and beat AK) and then when he had 20k chips shoved/reraised against a guy with 50k who raised from 800 to 2400 and lost with his powerful A6 suited vs larger chip players KK. His goal was to win I guess through dominated hands . Wish I had seen this guy play before the 99 hand .

I lost site of my tournament goals that 99 hand (which is to win, not merely sneak into the money) and it cost me.


On the hand I originally posted, I would have called on the flop there but certainly on the turn or the river all of my chips would have been in the pot. I think Norse was put on the defensive and even though his hand kept improving (albeit in ways he did not anticipate) he just did not know what to do. He won a very nice pot but he could and should have won 10k+ more chips.

All Aces story about the player at the live game made me chuckle. That pretty much described the 1-2ish hours of being at the table with that jenni man/woman/other (until he/she got knocked out around 200th or so that night).

The only part that made me chuckle is when discussing the hand jenni asked "when was the last time YOU made the final table of this rebuy?" to me and I was through fortunate timing able to say 2 days ago as an honest answer. He/she then informed me that he/she makes 3-4 a week, gets paid off in 90% of them blah blah blah etc.


Edit: the

"Pfff. As if that's impressive. I rent an apartment with utilities included, own an Xbox, and have 5 different flavours of pudding in my fridge. I am the greatest."

made me laugh quite a bit also. Reminded me of my 5 year high school reunion where literally the first thing one person said to me after we said hi was "let me show you my VISA gold card." I then showed my Blockbuster video card which I explained allowed me to rent not just 1 but multiple movies that I wanted. The other people around us laughed and the gold card guy never clued into who they were really laughing at since he was so happy in his own special world.

Better when it happens at poker though since they usually pay to live in that world

ConfusedONE

ScottyZ wrote:

Pfff. As if that's impressive. I rent an apartment with utilities included, own an Xbox, and have 5 different flavours of pudding in my fridge. I am the greatest.

Excellent

i need a new roof for my Igloo :frown:

rofl,
CO

literation

Nice hand and social observations. It reminds me of...


"Big egos and big losses go hand in hand."

-John Gollehon

arkose

from what ppl say, maybe this player is the type to keep betting even though someone is cold-calling....she didnt exactly scream strength with her raise/bet on the flop/turn...so why raise big and give her a chance to fold?...the guy had a good hand, and i think he played it fine...

although if it were me, i might consider raising big (all-in?) on the turn after jennicide bets only 4000 because the pot is pretty big...might as well take it down right then if possible, especially with so many outs to back you up

ScottyZ

I don't think I'd raise on the turn.

Moving all-in on the turn is for a huge amount of chips, and your opponent can't possibly call with a hand that is losing to a pair of kings.* You're at best about a 2.5 to 1 dog when he/she does call. Yuck.

It's hard to imagine getting a better hand to fold here.

Raising a smaller amount basically the same downside(s) as moving all-in, but also the *additional* drawback of allowing your opponent to move all-in on you on the turn as a bluff (including a semi-bluff). Now you have two ways to be forced to an all-in decision by your opponent (either getting re-raised for value, or re-raised as a bluff) before you get to see the river card, which might have made you the flush. Now you're in a very tough spot of the turn, not knowing whether your aggressive opponent is bluffing, semi-bluffing, or beats a pair of kings. You may be thinking, "I should have just called".

[Incidentally, this is a *great* quick check to do if you're going to raise instead of closing the betting in a NL betting round. Imagine an opponent re-raising all-in. Is your reaction, "I should have just called"?]

Even if your opponent simply calls the turn raise, it is probably not for value, since you are again very likely to be behind (given that your opponent calls) and a 2.5 to 1 dog at best.

Finally, just calling the turn bet may illicit another bet on the river as a bluff (no matter what card falls) from an aggressive opponent. This sort of combined turn-river action is the nice "gain chips when you're winning, limit losses when you're losing" result we're looking for. :cool:

I think raising the *river* may be worth consideration. Here's where a value raise makes a lot of sense since your hand is so well disguised going runner-runner. Your opponent will be very likely pay you off with a lower two pair. Just calling on the river is a good play too. It's really a matter of how you weigh the risk of being beaten and (probably) busted if you raise against having a reasonably good chance of snagging some more chips.

ScottyZ

*Okay, okay. Maybe with exactly 8s Xs, or a few similar huge draws.

Monteroy

A very similar hand just happened to me in the multi table 30 rebuy this morning. What is interesting is while my opponent faced a similar choice with K x suited I think in this case a fold would be in order as opposed to a call after the flop. I suppose the position difference and the fact that it was an all in reraise make me think it should have been played differently even though they both had pretty much the same hand.

It was an interesting hand. I normally would call with what I had but this player showed he was willing to gamble with inferior hands a lot (he had 2 outed 3 other players to knock them out already after calling all ins), so my raise was definitely with the intent of being called. He did take a while to choose to call.

Anyways for those who care here is the hand:

PokerStars Game #909125558: Tournament #3663338, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2004/11/30 - 09:49:02 (ET)
Table '3663338 15' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: jajajaja (10455 in chips)
Seat 3: DEJ8 (10645 in chips)
Seat 4: 54WINEMAN (8455 in chips)
Seat 5: Monteroy (4615 in chips)
Seat 6: rukiddingme (2805 in chips)
Seat 7: donzi (1800 in chips)
Seat 8: signal80 (11527 in chips)
Seat 9: mexmex (11530 in chips)
jajajaja: posts the ante 25
DEJ8: posts the ante 25
54WINEMAN: posts the ante 25
Monteroy: posts the ante 25
rukiddingme: posts the ante 25
donzi: posts the ante 25
signal80: posts the ante 25
mexmex: posts the ante 25
rukiddingme: posts small blind 100
donzi: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Ad 6d]
signal80: calls 200
mexmex: folds
jajajaja: calls 200
DEJ8: folds
54WINEMAN: folds
Monteroy: calls 200
rukiddingme: folds
donzi: checks
*** FLOP *** [2d 6h 7d]
donzi: checks
signal80: checks
jajajaja: bets 600
Monteroy: raises 3790 to 4390 and is all-in
donzi: folds
signal80: folds
jajajaja: calls 3790
*** TURN *** [2d 6h 7d] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [2d 6h 7d Kc] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jajajaja: shows [Kd Td] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)
Monteroy: shows [Ad 6d] (two pair, Sevens and Sixes)
jajajaja collected 9880 from pot

arkose

i don't think raising all-in on the turn is as bad as you make it out to be scotty...

when jennicide bets 4000 on the turn, the pot is about 19k...and you only have about 20k left....thats a big pot that you want to win, why not get aggressive?

if you raise all-in and get called by 2 pair (but not top two, and its hard to imagine your opponent hitting 2 pair with the king) you will be a 36% dog....which makes it an even money proposition.....in this case, you win with any 6, K, Q or spade...

add to that the possibility that jennicide folds to your raise, and i think its a good move.....it was an unraised pot preflop, then this EP player cold-calls you, and makes a move on the turn....there is a decent chance he has a set, you have to consider folding for another 16k

now, granted, maybe you raise all-in and get called by a made str8, that is a chance you take....but you may also be up against a worse holding than 2 pair; perhaps A9, 98, or 8xXs for str8 draw/flush draw....i definitely think its odd that jennicide chose to bet only 4k on the turn, it makes it unlikely that she has a str8; it smells of weakness

i don't know the players or their images, so its tough for me to say whether jennicide would consider folding to this player at this point in the tourney......but in general, if you are playing to win, i think this is a good move to make