Where did I go wrong

Botmac

Had a tight image at the table, had only gone to show down twice in the 34 hands I had been at this table, both times with aces.Player who called was loose.
PokerStars Game #34418942310: Tournament #206281911, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2009/10/23 22:10:57 ET
Table '206281911 20' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ATILITILI (6770 in chips)
Seat 2: LadyLuck84 (13808 in chips)
Seat 3: Vidal_087 (5917 in chips)
Seat 5: BeatMaxx (8441 in chips)
Seat 6: Alleycat-21 (8060 in chips)
Seat 7: penny4gold (10573 in chips)
Seat 8: SteelPitt (8295 in chips)
Seat 9: AJBLAZE (8345 in chips)
ATILITILI: posts the ante 25
LadyLuck84: posts the ante 25
Vidal_087: posts the ante 25
BeatMaxx: posts the ante 25
Alleycat-21: posts the ante 25
penny4gold: posts the ante 25
SteelPitt: posts the ante 25
AJBLAZE: posts the ante 25
Alleycat-21: posts small blind 125
penny4gold: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SteelPitt [Ts Td]
SteelPitt: raises 500 to 750
AJBLAZE: folds
ATILITILI: folds
LadyLuck84: folds
Vidal_087: folds
BeatMaxx: folds
Alleycat-21: folds
penny4gold: calls 500
*** FLOP *** [3d 5h 4s]
penny4gold: bets 1500
SteelPitt: raises 1500 to 3000
penny4gold: raises 6798 to 9798 and is all-in
SteelPitt: calls 4520 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2278) returned to penny4gold
*** TURN *** [3d 5h 4s] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [3d 5h 4s Jc] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
penny4gold: shows [Js 6d] (a pair of Jacks)
SteelPitt: shows [Ts Td] (a pair of Tens)
penny4gold collected 16865 from pot
chewi9 is connected
Vidal_087 said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16865 | Rake 0
Board [3d 5h 4s Jc 9c]
Seat 1: ATILITILI folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LadyLuck84 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Vidal_087 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BeatMaxx (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Alleycat-21 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: penny4gold (big blind) showed [Js 6d] and won (16865) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: SteelPitt showed [Ts Td] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 9: AJBLAZE folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Kristy

*cough* bad beat alert *cough*

min-raising the flop was sorta lame though.

Unknown

Player who called is loose....? That's a funny statement. But as far as the hand goes you put all your money in on a 58/42 (someone could calculate better) so your just better than a coin flip. If you do this 2 or 3 times in a tourney...with all your money....you will surely be out. Math says so

Kristy

Decided to add to the above, I've been playing 180 mans a lot lately..you have another couple mistakes imo.

botmac wrote:

Had a tight image at the table

1. You don't have a table image.

This is the beautiful thing about 4.40's all the people playing them are either playing a bunch or are morons (and likely both) they have no clue what you're up to. Simply playing your buttons and premiums and NOT getting unlucky are going to put you in the money every time and usually with a formidable stack.

2. He can't have a really solid range, because he's a moron.
You obv cannot allot for THAT much random as to include j/6o..it is the same as saying "His range is two cards"

I've found a happy medium by taking a good lags range and leaving the rest to the "Harrington 10% he's bluffing (or an idiot)"

So looking at this hand, PP's make a lot of sense, other hands that flat call raises and might lead out in this game are ak-aj.

You aren't beating enough of the pairs and you aren't getting called by enough of the hands you are beating. In a 4.40, I'm trying to keep all my chips out of this pot and get to the turn for less where the opponents hand becomes clearer.

See psychic predictions in ghost text.
The nits here will try to tell you to 'protect your hand' blah blah blah 'ace on the turn' blah blah blah, but the opponent has lead out nearly pot on the flop making overpair/draw play unprofitable in one card, and roughly break even in two. I'm cool with that.

Kristy

darbday wrote: »

Player who called is loose....? That's a funny statement. But as far as the hand goes you put all your money in on a 58/42 (someone could calculate better) so your just better than a coin flip. If you do this 2 or 3 times in a tourney...with all your money....you will surely be out. Math says so

I half agree with you.

I'm not thrilled to get all my chips in here either..but your mention of 58/42 here is too specific. He didn't know what the guy had, and our advice should be conscious of that. If I was SURE it was a 58/42 I'd sprain my wrists.

I still think this is a turn decision.

STR82ACE

As much as it may pain me to say so, I agree with Kristy here...<hey, wow...world didn't end>

Add A2 and 67s to the range as well for the nuts here. I don't mind you raising here on the flop to see where you're at, but calling off all your stack with mid Pair is risky.

compuease

+1 on above, agree wholeheartedly... as Kristy says, playing position and/or premium cards at this level will get you close to the bubble with a decent stack most of the time. Then open up your range (hoping that others don't realize it in time) and chip up. Occasionally this puts you out but gotta play the odds and go for top three where the money is. lol... This also works live as well... unless your're playing Kristy...

I do not raise the flop here as that commits my stack.. If I raise on flop, and likely not here, it's all in. However depending on read I'm likely getting it in on the turn anyways as I can't see that it helped op. Danger here is that op hit a set on flop.

Kristy

STR82ACE wrote: »

As much as it may pain me to say so, I agree with Kristy here...<hey, wow...world didn't end>

Add A2 and 67s to the range as well for the nuts here. I don't mind you raising here on the flop to see where you're at, but calling off all your stack with mid Pair is risky.

lol..how is that 'agreeing with me'

IMO DO NOT RAISE THE FLOP GET TO THE TURN.

STR82ACE

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

lol..how is that 'agreeing with me'

IMO DO NOT RAISE THE FLOP GET TO THE TURN.

I only suggested a raise to see where you're at. At a push, yes, a fold is in order. IMO you shouldn't even be wanting to see a turn card, as too many cards would totally dominate you. Any high card threatens a bigger pair, any 2,3,4,5,6,7 fills up a straights and trips/boats

Kristy

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

See psychic predictions in ghost text.
The nits here will try to tell you to 'protect your hand' blah blah blah 'ace on the turn' blah blah blah, but the opponent has lead out nearly pot on the flop making overpair/draw play unprofitable in one card, and roughly break even in two. I'm cool with that.

STR82ACE wrote: »

I only suggested a raise to see where you're at. At a push, yes, a fold is in order. IMO you shouldn't even be wanting to see a turn card, as too many cards would totally dominate you. Any high card threatens a bigger pair, any 2,3,4,5,6,7 fills up a straights and trips/boats

bwahahahaha

STR82ACE

Protecting your hand is NOT the same as finding out where you are in a hand.

sheesh

Kristy

What this is really about is the progression of poker. It used to be people were afraid to play flops and pre-flop hand selection ruled the day. Now people have been forced to play them to recapture an edge..the next step is turn and river play.

If he (opponent) hits his overcards on the turn he needed 8:1 to break even..your call gives 2:1 and the remaining stack does not supply the implied.

If he hits his oesd he was roughly 5:1 in one card..he's only ok by presuming that you will call a shove if he hits. Which is a brash assumption, and as part of the whole gamut of overs, draws and bluffs it really doesn't upset the cart that much.

So like 16% of the time you have a moderately tough decision..and I think timing and sizing will be further illuminating in those instances where the turn completes a straight.

Overs are losers, and these weird crazy hand/combos like j/6o are not something that you can/should specifically plan for.

Gotta run for a bit..

Botmac

Thanks people for the advise, ya the min raise on flop was kinda weak, should have shoved, after seeing his cards I don't think he would have folded to any bet. I did like the flop for P10, just unlucky he calls with J6 and has an openender. Should I have raise more preflop, I did not like my position and did not want to commit alot of chips preflop with P10. Kinda funny that I did lose em all anyway

Kristy

Botmac wrote: »

Thanks people for the advise, ya the min raise on flop was kinda weak, should have shoved, after seeing his cards I don't think he would have folded to any bet. I did like the flop for P10, just unlucky he calls with J6 and has an openender. Should I have raise more preflop, I did not like my position and did not want to commit alot of chips preflop with P10. Kinda funny that I did lose em all anyway

:facepalm:

At least I remember why I don't post here anymore now.

Kristy

STR82ACE wrote: »

Protecting your hand is NOT the same as finding out where you are in a hand.

sheesh

lol..just saw this now. You're right, 'finding out where you are' is not the same because it (unlike 'protecting your hand') is ALWAYS stupid, and in this hand ...COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE:

you are not deep enough to fold once you've done more than min-raise and our opponent is shoving everything down to the lamest draw.

Congratulations, you're wrong in every conceivable way..that's hard to do!

STR82ACE

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

lol..just saw this now. You're right, 'finding out where you are' is not the same because it (unlike 'protecting your hand') is ALWAYS stupid, and in this hand ...COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE:

you are not deep enough to fold once you've done more than min-raise and our opponent is shoving everything down to the lamest draw.

Congratulations, you're wrong in every conceivable way..that's hard to do!

Welcome back...when are you leaving again?

Kristy

STR82ACE wrote: »

Welcome back...when are you leaving again?

don't worry, I promise that if you haven't learned a thing in the half a decade you've been here..you won't now.

You're saying you,:dislike min raises, like a raise, but would fold to a shove? What amount are you raising that you can get away from and what info are you getting from it that you can't get on the turn?

Don't chirp if you can't back your shit up AJ I'm prepared to debate this.

STR82ACE

where did i say i don't like min raise? What I said was if you're going to raise to find out information, make it more than min, or in this case push anyway. I'm saying you don't want to see a turn card here, so either make a raise that's going to matter or fold the hand on the flop.

I started out agreeing with you, but for some reason you're content on trying to find something to bash me with. You play your game, and I'll play mine.

Forgive me for agreeing with you. Will NOT happen again.

Cerberus

Don't chirp if you can't back your shit up AJ I'm prepared to debate this.[/QUOTE]

Ummm... this is different from any other topic because...?

Kristy

Cerberus wrote: »

Ummm... this is different from any other topic because...?

Here's the difference between me and most of the posters in this thread...

I actually win these things pretty regularly.

Cerberus

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

Here's the difference between me and most of the posters in this thread...

I actually win these things pretty regularly.

True, but I was just asking how you being willing to argue that point was somehow different from any other topic

Kristy

yes, I know..but I'm trying for once to keep this thread on track.

Don't worry..my patience is short lived and I'll be back to posting lolcats and put downs shortly, I'm sure.

Kristy

Kristy_Sea wrote:

IMO DO NOT RAISE THE FLOP GET TO THE TURN.

STR82ACE wrote: »

where did i say i don't like min raise? What I said was if you're going to raise to find out information, make it more than min, or in this case push anyway. I'm saying you don't want to see a turn card here, so either make a raise that's going to matter or fold the hand on the flop.

I started out agreeing with you, but for some reason you're content on trying to find something to bash me with. You play your game, and I'll play mine.

Forgive me for agreeing with you. Will NOT happen again.

you keep sneaking in there..
In what way are you agreeing with me?

Let me simplify:

Blue ≠ Pink
Bold ≠ Underlined

philliivey

milo where is the beer and popcorn???:)

Unknown

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

I half agree with you.

I'm not thrilled to get all my chips in here either..but your mention of 58/42 here is too specific. He didn't know what the guy had, and our advice should be conscious of that. If I was SURE it was a 58/42 I'd sprain my wrists.

I still think this is a turn decision.

thx for the comment. I realize you can't pinpoint the opp's hand but certainly you don't want to be all in here without at least being the first to shove. I just didn't elaborate, the point is what numbers do you want to have all your money in with 60/40 70/30 80/20? , and how could you possible have him on a range that gives you this. You say its a turn decision, i think that makes for a really hard turn decision no?

Kristy

no, as I said above..it is only a sorta hard turn decision when the straight completes..and most of the players at this level will let you know with timing and bet sizing..and you can make your decision then.

Against an opponent like this- I expect that we get our chips in on the turn the majority of the time, but on the turn his shove into us can include a two barrel bluff and a much less important oesd and is therefore better for us. As I said earlier, he priced himself out of overpair draws on the flop...so the worst case scenario of a draw completing is a minority (very roughly 84/16 for us)

We likely both go broke playing this particular hand, but I go broke in a much stronger position than you.

compuease

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

We likely both go broke playing this particular hand, but I go broke in a much stronger position than you.

I love going broke strongly....... but I'm still broke..... love ya Kristy... That's such an emphatic statement... Think I need a lolcat..

You coming to Belwood tomorrow?

Kristy

compuease wrote: »

I love going broke strongly....... but I'm still broke..... love ya Kristy... That's such an emphatic statement... Think I need a lolcat..

You coming to Belwood tomorrow?

My Dad's birthday party is tomorrow, and even then..its a bit of a drive from Kitchener.

I love you too, but that post is ..what's a nicer way to say 'retarded'?
..oh yeah "results oriented"

djgolfcan

In the $4.40 - 180 person SNG, this is an easy call when villain shoves over our min-re-raise. We have already committed about half our stack at this point and if we win the hand, we cruise to the money and are in great position to make the final table.

Yes, I am concerned about a set but that's about it but more often than not its mid pp (66-99, you can throw in A-5, A-6 in there as well). Well worth the chance in this scenario.

I would have shipped all my chips in after villains flop bet. It looks like he still calls his straight draw but atleast you got it in ahead. And I would rather have the made hand than the draw.