What the hell happened?
This was a hand that I played in a tourney this weekend, I just want to get some feedback.
Early on (in first hour), blinds are 10/20.
Im in late position, one caller in first position.
In the hole I have 9h10h, I raise to 80, SB and BB fold original caller calls.
Flop
8h 8d 7s
He checks, I raise 100 and im called instantly without hesitation.
Turn Jh
He checks I raise 100 and am called instantly.
River Jd
He checks, I raise 500 he thinks for 3 seconds and goes all in....
What do you do?
Early on (in first hour), blinds are 10/20.
Im in late position, one caller in first position.
In the hole I have 9h10h, I raise to 80, SB and BB fold original caller calls.
Flop
8h 8d 7s
He checks, I raise 100 and im called instantly without hesitation.
Turn Jh
He checks I raise 100 and am called instantly.
River Jd
He checks, I raise 500 he thinks for 3 seconds and goes all in....
What do you do?
Comments
There are way to many possibilities for him to have a fullhouse. Based on him calling your bets post flop and based on the fact that he called from an early position he very well could of had pocket 7's or A-8.
I am thinking that your straight is no longer the nuts. What did you do?
I dont see how a call can be correct here, but if you checed down when the jack hit, you wouldnt be in this mess.
With a hand like T9s in the early stages, I'm either limping in if I'm pretty confident there will be no pre-flop raise, and folding otherwise.
You've got to check on the flop. When the flop comes paired, I'm not liking my hand much even if I complete the straight draw. Why? Well, it's the "board looks scary to both opponents" idea. Even if you do make your straight draw, your opponent is pretty likely to give you action (which turns out to be action you do not want) only with hands that *like* paired boards, most likely full houses. Even if your opponent starts off with merely trips, his re-draw is just about as good as your draw. This is a horrendous spot to be in. Taking a free card is in order.
On the turn, you complete the straight, and have a (pretty irrelevant) to the SF. When the flop comes paired, I'm not liking my hand much even if I complete the straight draw. At this point, I would check it again. Note that I am not taking *any* aggressive action with this particular hand, from pre-flop to river.
On the river, the board brings 2 pair, and your opponent makes an unbelievably bad mistake by going for the check-raise with what seems to be at least Jacks full. Check behind him and make him pay for that mistake. You can't bet the river here, since a river bet from last position must either
1. Expect a worse hand than yours to call
or
2. Expect a better hand than yours to fold
With two pair on board, neither of these seems likely. Again, the scary board looks scary to your opponent too.
I guess the only debatable question is whether your opponent is going to fold 8's full here. A typical player would probably make a crying call with an 8 here (though probably would just call and not move all-in). A bad player would make the call and probably not be crying. A good player who relishes witnessing (and later complaining about) terrible bad beats may even call you here, thinking you may have drawn out runner-runner on him. Players, both bad and good, sometimes have some strange reasons (both conscious and subconscious) for playing the way they do.
ScottyZ
Not so much of their play but of there personalities and as such, I went off my game.
the king beside me (on my right)would bet out with BS and throw me off of marginal hands. He did it before and to another limper so when it happened a third time, I let him blow me off my hand, and it made me lay down a naked ace, when I knew it was probably good. " I thought wow, he's a good player and he's probably setting me up, I better respect it cause he knows that I saw him do that three times and now hes set me up me"...
the limper on my left, would defend a small raise with an all in if he had anything, but never got called. In the first couple of blinds rounds usually I would see that usualla sign of of weakness of the player or the hand (why would you risk everything on a 2 bet for a return on pockets when everyone else has folded) - so when he did it to me when I had pockets 8's I laid them down when I was short stacked instead of thinking "wow, I caught him with my poket 8's what a chance to double up", I was thinking wow do I want to go out early ? that will show all these good players I suck why take the chance"....
... I was on tilt as soon as I walked in the door... I even went looking for the crowd for "friends" when I first got there to make sure I belonged... I should have never given my entrance fee...I had no chance of winning cause I was so afraid of losing.....
Here's how the hand went down.. the table has been calling anything with 2 or 3 bets, 8/4 off, naked aces, unsuited middle strs..... and they have been hitting and paying off big...so heres my chance to get into a pot with a 4x and take a payout, I will just rep the flop and I should be able to take (bluff) it if its high cards, but could hope to hit a top end low str or flush and it would pay off HUGE cause the middle pairs would be in it.
We are all near starting stacks, maybe within 10-15% except for one guy who has been catching everything, 8/2o on the button, naked aces turn to flushes for him, he's at about 1800.
So Im dealt T9h, in late position it seems like a good hand to make a play. I raise to 80, gets folded past me, original caller calls.
Flop 8h 8d 7s
He checks
and Im thinking wow, he has bet out 2x bet everytime when his naked aces or pairs hit.... he has nothing for me? or wait is he setting me up, thats a MONSTER if he had an 8 maybe he's trying to trap me.
Ok I think better check it out, probably wont have the patience with the nutz, he'll tell me if he has an 8....
I bet 100
He calls
what? I didnt even get my chips on the table and he called, wow that SCREAMS weak hand.... but maybe hes got me and is excited? maybe hes really scared of the flush... he's much better ...and he knows I know he is a good player...hes trying to trap me.
Turn - Jh
He checks.
.. wow I made my hand. He's done, what's in the pot? close to $500, better try and build it.
... I bet out 100.
He calls.
wow, he quick called that again, he knows he's done but he's got hope. He doesnt have that 8 cheit.... but he'll pay me off. I bet he has an a/k or maybe 9/9.... If he had the jack, thats a huge hand j/8's and he would have bet out at least 2x bet, he's afraid of what Im betting with, probably has 9/9 or a/7
River Jd
He's scared, he looked at his chips and then just checked when he moved his had back...pretty quick...must have been a tell. He's scared...
Lets make some money, I can even rep the fullhouse...
I bet 500 (about 80 % of my stack)......
He goes all-in
Wow that was quick...
Phuck, shit, he killed me ... he had that J all along... man did he out play me... he didn't even take a second to think about it.... he's all in that's everything maybe 500 more then me.... wow he completely out played me... Man these guys are good.... he had me.
Well least I didn't have me out.... I still have a chip and a chair...
I fold...
I show my cards as I lay them down. I want respect for that laydown it might help the pain I had.
"Wow, I cant believe you out hit me... I had a monster straight, look 9/10 hearts...... "what did you have?"
" You had me... queens" and shows two queens."
"Did you know any jack, or 8 beat you? what did you think I had?" He looked back at the board and I saw his eyes light up.... he just realized how lucky he was.
It burned, I played short stack for another hour or so, but I never got back into it.
However, when I went to the side game, I did well. Very well. The pressure was off, and these players were not any better then me, we had all busted out.
Lesson learned.
??????????????????????
ScottyZ
Thats where I screwed up. I had a read, I was sure I had him.... I was commiting myself to double up...then I let my doubts get in the way and second guessed myself. And went into survival mode instead of getting paid off.
Everything I knew was telling me I had him. And when he overbet, my first thought was I had him... then I let the doubts in and I folded not cause I was beat...cause I was scared I was.
If there was a technical mistake , It was the five hundred bet, perhaps I should have taken the free call for the pot. That was weak play....but where I feel I lost was not trusting my gut and what was there in front of me.
If he had shown me the J or 8 then all of my instincts were wrong, which makes my game completely wrong. He wasn't a tricky player, he had played weakly straight up the whole time.... yet now I thought he got tricky? I gave way to much credit to the player.
I should have never made that 500 bet unless I thought I was boss, then to fold it after that was the mistake. I had made that 500 wanting a call, I had made up my mind, for him to go over was a blessing, but I let it screw me up.
For now its how Im letting it sit in my head. Im at peace with it, I still lost the hand nothing changes that.
Why not go all in instead? Now you are left with about 100 chips, you have to call his all-in raise..
Yes you should have just checked it though.. Live in learn.
What da!?
The key to river betting (or raising as the case may be) in last position, especially in no-limit, is to consider what you're going to do if your opponent raises (or re-raises) you back.
If you have a weak to marginal hand which may win at the showdown, you *generally* shouldn't bet or raise on the river. This a standard example of applying the "don't bet or raise when you're last to act if you will hate being raised" rule.
Of course, don't take this idea too far. Betting/raising for value when you really think you've got the goods is fine. Betting/raising as a pure bluff is fine if you think your opponent will release a superior hand.
For this particular hand, the only hands I would consider betting on the river in last position are 22-77, Jx and 88.
The general idea that you will hate your opponent raising you back is why I think betting 500 on the river is too much. In fact, I think betting more than 0 is too much. A small bet won't do, because you're just re-opening the action for your opponent by doing so. You've certainly got *just* enough hand that you would like to show it down against such a threatening board, and your hand isn't so good that a value bet is called for.
Regardless who you get to that point, with only 200 chips remaining into a 1,800 pot, I think you've got to call the river check-raise. You don't like your hand at this point obviously, but you do have *something*. You've got to be nearly 100% certain that your opponent's got it to fold here. I doubt I would lay it down for the additional 200 even if I thought I knew a player *very* well, and read him for a hand.
...Queens??!!??? Man, that even puts me on tilt, and I'm just reading about it...
Glad to hear you made a strong recovery in the cash game afterwards. I think it shows a lot of character being able to keep it together and play some good cards after going through a hand like that one.
ScottyZ
Scotty, why would you bet anything from 22-88, and Jx? I mean if you would bet 22 or 33 then why not QQ or KK?
I just can't get my head around that one. Could you elaborate for us Newbs out there
I think it was only about 100-125 since he said when he bet 500 it was 80% of his stack. Even more reason to call
I said I would *consider* betting these hands. And I listed 22-77 and 88 separately on purpose. :cool:
I would bet 88 and Jx for value. I would *consider* betting 22-66 (or 7x) as a bluff. Just about any other hand I could imagine having at that point (well, it depends on the action) would be worth checking and showing down.
For example, I'd most likely check and show down any high kicker, any overpair, 99, TT, or a straight. These hands all have *some* chance of being the best hand, but they're not strong enough for a value bet. Remember to make a value bet, you must expect to have the winning hand if you are called (or raised).
The borderline hand between value betting and checking the river would probably be exactly 77. This is probably still a little too weak for a value bet. Even 8x is pretty close.
Because the 22 and 33 have no chance of winning a showdown, and QQ and KK have some chance of winning a showdown.
ScottyZ
I had him beat, I thought I had him beat and I layed it down cause I let my mind tell me that he tricked me and outplayed me. He didn't.
I continue to think about this hand. Had I called I would have had my confidence back and would have been in awesome position, with the extra chips to call out some of the BS that was happening before me... my table play would have been elevated and I could have forseen going much further in the tourney.... could have been, but now I have a bad beat story like a chump! :banghead:
It was proven in the side games, as soon as the fear of losing was gone, I did well... I just didnt want to be a jackass in front of all these seemingly great players. :banghead:
Q fricken Q..... and the fear in his eyes when he realized any J or 8 made a boat, and the relief of knowing how lucky he was.
Now Im am wondering if it was an amazing play on his part cause he knew I didnt have a jack or 8
Im a dumbass, it will burn me for a while.
Any Tourneys this weekend?
Teach was there?
ScottyZ
Got him in the sit n goes though
I was about maybe the 8th or 9th guy out. Here's how it went down....
Sitting in the small blind, its folded around to me. Check my pockets J
J! Sweet! I raise to $100. Now I should tell you that the BB and myself built up a little rapport during the first hour or so, (I had been stealing his blinds).
He looks at me after my raise and says.."trying to steal again eh, I call you"
Now as soon as he said that, I put him on a big hand. It was the weirdest feeling that came over me, but I knew he had something.
Now while I'm thinking this the flop comes down 5-Q-9, and before I have time to let my brain catch up with my mouth, those two Moronic words come spewing out.......ALL IN, He calls instantly, of course and flips over cowboys!
Man, what was I thinking? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I mean, even if he had a Queen I was done for. I guess the only positive thing I can take from this experience (and beleive me, you have to find positives in any negative situation) is that I could have easily had Q-Q or that Q on the flop could have been a J, and he would have called me just the same! I know for next time!
Damn, now I think about that!?!
Oh, well next time :redface:
I didnt want to tell you this, he could see your cards!
You had a shiny button on your shirt, that reflected your cards...
we all saw it.
For this reason I rarely slow play an open set.
Are you suggesting that the all in with a flopped set would be the right move?