Poker Slump online!! HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been in a slump for the past month and a half that almost rivals the Stanley Cup drought in Toronto. I swear the the poker gods have decided to turn against me. I played a tourny last night and I got AK twice in 10 hands and then the rest of the tourny I got a pair of 7's once and nothing but hands like 7/3 Q3 A4 J9 etc, you get point. This has been going on for a while now. My bankroll is gone, my desire to deposit almost gone. Its so bad that I've had my AA cracked 8 out of last 10 times. If I have a JJ someone has QQ, if I have a QQ someone has KK.
Any ideas what to do to get out of this? I've changed sites and that didnt help, I've taken a break and that didnt work either. I know I can win because I've done it before. I know how to play its just hard to play when you get chit hands all the time.
any input will be greatly appreaciated
frustrated :banghead:
Red
Any ideas what to do to get out of this? I've changed sites and that didnt help, I've taken a break and that didnt work either. I know I can win because I've done it before. I know how to play its just hard to play when you get chit hands all the time.
any input will be greatly appreaciated
frustrated :banghead:
Red
Comments
Best advise don't deposit, just walk away for a few days or weeks if you need to. I find that bad cards happen.
Just stay patient.
In terms of not getting cards in a tourney, well that happens and you lose the tournament, or you learn how to play with bad cards.
I feel your pain. Many people have said that poker is an easy game to learn and almost impossible to master. I was on a month long winning streak, I couldn't lose, only to have the poker demons claim much of it back the following month.
At this point you have to step back and ask why? If it's just a case of normal variance, coupled with a bad run of cards or a few bad beats that's one thing. But in my case, looking back on my hand histories, I had gotten quite lucky in my first month. In my first month a few speculative hands really paid off, and unfortunately that reinforced some unwise decisions in my second month.
In his book "Small Stakes Hold'em: Winning Big with Expert Play," Ed Miller talks about why the learning process in poker is different than in other things:
"This is the normal human process for learning. Unfortunately it does not work at all for poker. The immediate results in poker are often divorced from your actions. Sometimes you flop a big hand, bet and raise to build up a huge pot, and get drawn out on a miracle river card. You acted correctly, but your result was terrible. Other times, you may make a loose call and be the recipient of the miracle river card. You acted incorrectly, but your result was terrific. These common "backwards" results fool your brain's natural learning process."
Ed goes on to point out that the short-term divergence between action and result reinforces bad players to continue to seek out unlikely wins from bad play. He argues that it also gets good players to second guess thier theoretically sound strategy - by not being aggressive when they should, trying to protect themselves against a suckout - and therefore encouraging more suckouts.
The other thing you mentioned was that your bankroll was gone. Poker is a game of variance. And a run of bad luck and bad cards will happen. I think it's important to consider what size bankroll you need to support the limits and buy-ins you are playing. Everyone has a bad run, but if you are a solid player, your results will reflect it in the long run. But you MUST have a starting bankroll that allows you to see the long run.
So I guess I would step back and decide whether your bad run was a result of normal variance or whether there are other adjustments to your game you need to examine. And then I would take a long look at what your starting bankroll requirements are to weather those inevitable dry spells.
And as I watch your emoticon beat its head against the wall, might I also suggest Zen and the Art of Poker. Not only is it one of the best anti-tilt books on the market, it really gives some great advice for how to maintain the proper emotional detachment in the wake of varying results.
Best of luck to you Red,
Amy Calistri
WOW!
I have to say that was a great response Amy! I've been a little down on myself lately...(all in w/J-J) is still bothering me. I will take your advice as well and read Zen and the Art of Poker. I have a real tendency to come down on myself really hard when I make a dumb move or the cards don't come my way.
It's easy for one to get down and stay down. We all have to battle back and stay positive. Analyze what we have done and move forward. We can't let our Poker emotions spiral downwards because the lower down you go, the harder it is to get back up again!
Stay patient and play tight for now Red. Things will turn around!
It's only a matter of time!
I would suggest playing low stakes sit n goes. $5 or so. You are still playing real cards but your $$ exposure is low. Once you get your A game back you can move slowly up the limits.
Also try the 30 day trial offer for pokertracker.com
This software may help you find some holes in your game.
I have not done this myself which is truly ignorant but here I am suggesting it to you.
My game has become weaker recently or perhaps mild luck has run out? My roll is ok but not where it should be for the amount I play. I am now working on fixing my game and I will be going to pokertracker as soon as I post this.
Good Luck!
For me, when it happened (numerous times, I might add) I usually did the normal productive things, like going up in limits (usually limits I had not played) to make my money back, or playing short games to make money back, or playing heads up to make my money back. I finally figured out that there was a theme happening. On the postive side, I very quickly learned how to play short, heads-up, and higher limits. But the tuition was expensive -- and I always used winnings to pay for the tuition.
So, what to do, if you don't want to pay high tuition. The only thing that worked for me was to get out of the cycle, and thought pattern which always revovled around getting my bankroll to where it was. As, soon as I accepted that part of my roll was gone for good and got back to my normal expectations, I was golden.
Somtimes, it required a two month break. Somtimes two weeks, and sometimes two-days. I know I've broken my cycle, when I accept that a 1BB/100 hands night is accpetable -- I'm happy with that.
In my downtime, I look to other activities. If I can't get poker out of my mind, I'll play the free Omaha hi-lo games, for free heads-up games, or micro-limit heads up. It's amazing how these games help the confidence level, as they're really easy to beat.
And finally, keep in mind what Dan Harrington says. He says that the difference between him and other players is not comparing themselves when they're running good, but when they're running bad.
Cheers
Magi
Knowing you can win and knowing that you are a winning player are two different things. There are lots and lots of example of players who are overall losers being winners for a few days or weeks. The path to being a "poker professional" is littered with young guns who, after enjoying a two month long winning streak, have discovered that they do not have "it" after all.
You must keep track of results for an extended period of time.
Then when the bad streak comes you will KNOW that you are a winning player. You will KNOW that your are either experiencing a short term fluctuation OR you have altered your game in some way and become a (short term) losing player.
This is a great quote. It's a keeper.
"Everybody is good on the good days . . .the bad days are where you win and lose"
I never thought of it in terms of poker . . .but boy does it ring true now that I think about it
Just to clarify, Does this mean winning 1BB per ever 100 hands played or dealt? And is 1BB/100 something that you would consider to be the norm or the minimum we should shoot for?
For me it's per 100 hands dealt. It's somewhat like the BB/hr that B&M players use as their measuring stick. Traditionally, if you make 3BB/hr in B&M (over a long period of time say, 200-400 hrs) you are doing very well.
The problem is that this measure doesn't translate well in the online world. Lower rake online, and no tipping (well, some of the seasoned pros don't tip, but that's another matter). Also, there is double the hands played. So, the old equation doesn't really compare well to online.
For me, the measure moves to about 4-5BB / 100 hands online, as a pretty darn good (say top 5% of players) rate. You just can't double the B&M rate because you're playing twice the hands, with no tips and a lower rake. The reason is that on average there are better players online and there's the absence of visual clues. You know when weak/tight Grandma is betting into a field, she has at a minimum two-pair. Online, you just know it's a somoeone who's shown weak/tight tendancies and it might cost you an extra BB to call that river bet with pocket aces and find out they are weak/tight. And, online the opponents change very quickly -- very hard to exploit specific oponents when they lose their buy-in and don't rebuy. B&M they are far more likely to keep reaching in their pocket. Online, they may reach in their pocket, but they'll likely be off to a new table.
Personally 1BB/hr is not something I strive for, right now. If I was moving up in limits I'd be thrilled at that rate, but given that I've been at my current limits for over two-years, I'd be examining how I played if I made that much. Keep in mind that I felt I've played my best poker, and lost about 2BB/hr.
I think what one should strive for is based on their own personal reasons. When I started out, I set out to break-even. Sounds dumb, but I was having fun. I looked at it as having fun, learning and eventually making money.
Gl at the tables
Magi
I know I only get one of these a month.........so here's my stupid question(s) for November. Wouldn't your 'win rate per hands dealt (1BB/100)' remain the same, or even go down, if you're playing online? For this question, use the example of playing only one table online. With a 'lower rake and no tips', wouldn't your win rate requirement actually be lower? As I am understanding '1BB/100 hands'.... it is used as the minimum win rate requirement in order to beat the rake? This is not a rhetorical question....I really don't know? In fact this whole concept of 1BB/100 is entirely new to me.... but I understand the need for it. The reason for my post is because it seems to me that 1BB/100 hands dealt seems like a very low requirement for increasing your bank roll? Any further clarification on this would be appreciated.
Cheers!
All else being equal (i.e. your opponents), your win rate online as BB/100 hands would generally be higher, because the rake/time charge is gereally lower. Your BB/hour online would be higher because you are playing more hands (and possibly more tables) every hour.
Of course, in reality, there are lots of things that are *not* equal. Players may be more skilled online. Collusion may be easier online. Playing multiple tables may online take away a large part of your win rate, particularly your BB/100 hands rate. (But you play more hands.) You may spend money eating out and driving to a traditional casino. You may play better in one setting or the other for a multitude of reasons.
An important concept: you need to play a *lot* of hands to have good confidence in your results. Probably 50,000 hands or more. That's maybe about 1,000 table-hours online.
ScottyZ
No problem, I wouldn't post if no one read or questioned my posts.
After re-reading your question, I think I know what you're getting at. You're really asking, "How many BB/hr do I need to make to break even, so anything above that I would be making money"
I think of the rake/tip as tax that's withdrawn at the source, meaning any money I make is free and clear of the rake/tip. The rake/tip is removed before the money goes into your stack. I've never thought of it as winning the entire pot, and then trying to subtract the rake/tips at the end of the night. I have no idea what the minimum win rate to beat the rake. if I'm making 0 BB/hr I'm beating the rake/tip. Online, I'm beating the rake. That's why 0 is not such a bad number and will make you above average. That's why, 0 BB/100 hands was my goal when I started.
The way you're thinking of it "what's the minimum number of BB hr to clear the rake/tip," the number will still not go down as you play more hands. The rake/tip still eats into your winnings at the same percentage. This assumes you're not paying a time charge instead of the rake. A time charge is something like 1BB per hour.
Lets look at it if you're a winning player and can beat the rake/tip at a B&M for 1BB/hr. It's an easy number to calculate, since you look at your stack after an hour and if you're up one BB, you've cleared the rake/tip for that hour by 1 BB. Now, lets say everything is equal for the next hour. You'll see an extra 1 BB in your stack. So your rate is 1BB/hr. (Note that if you're at 0 after the first hour, you still have to clear the same number of pots to stay at 0 for the second hour -- ie. it may be 1 pot per hour -- after two hours you need to clear 2 pots to stay at 0 BB/hr)
Lets say we can compress those first two hours into one, with the exact same hands, exact same people and thoughts. Now, at the end of ONE hour you look at your stack and you have 2BB. You're now winning at the rate of 2BB/hr. That's what online does. You get to play twice as many hands per hour. Winning players can make more quickly, and losing players lose more quickly.
That's why you see so many bad beat posts about rigged sites. (I digress) The human mind is an interesting thing -- remembers bad things much better than good things. So, now in an hour you're suffering twice as many bad beats as you do in a B&M. Now play two tables, and you're suffering four times as many bad beats as you do in a typical B&M setting. It's not hard to see why someone would feel that online is rigged -- after all they are suffering four times as many bad beats in an hour. It becomes real easy to go on tilt with all that suffering! And, then voila, I'm a B&M winner and online is rigged.
Hope this helps.
Magi