Strange QQ spot

Wetts1012Wetts1012
in No Limit / Pot Limit Holdem
Whats the play here and why. I will explain my reasoning after the fact, although Im not sure about it.

Full Tilt Poker Game #10841308134: $10 + $1 Knockout (81469049), Table 73 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:45:42 ET - 2009/02/25
Seat 1: klj7 (1,860)
Seat 2: mivgash (13,295)
Seat 3: DrunkIndian (6,385)
Seat 4: gott ist stumm (1,615)
Seat 5: erol1974 (11,110)
Seat 6: TheBulldog3 (1,200)
Seat 7: luckychip70 (2,785)
Seat 8: ferdy 1982 (1,800), is sitting out
Seat 9: Wetts1012 (12,245)
Wetts1012 posts the small blind of 60
klj7 posts the big blind of 120
DJ Magik MyK (Observer): Gott, you are still on for this friday right? Mr. C got you a seat...had to bump someone else off for ya
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Wetts1012 [Qd Qh]
mivgash folds
DrunkIndian folds
gott ist stumm has 15 seconds left to act
gott ist stumm folds
erol1974 calls 120
TheBulldog3 folds
luckychip70 folds
ferdy 1982 folds
Wetts1012 raises to 480
klj7 folds
erol1974 calls 360
gott ist stumm: yeah
*** FLOP *** [9h Jh 8c]
Wetts1012 checks
DJ Magik MyK (Observer): cool beans
erol1974 bets 1,080
Wetts1012 calls 1,080
*** TURN *** [9h Jh 8c] [5h]
Wetts1012 checks
slimbooo (Observer): whats the buy in?
erol1974 has 15 seconds left to act
erol1974 bets 3,240
Wetts1012 has 15 seconds left to act
Wetts1012 has requested TIME
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Comments

  • Big MikeBig Mike
    Do you have any kind of a read on erol?
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Other than him being a $10 tournament goof like myself, no.
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    Why a check/call on the flop? Unless you had him on KK or AA before the flop, but that doesn't seem likely, a feeler raise of 1/2 pot would tell you a lot about his hand. As it is, you know nothing about his strength, and he gets a cheap look at the turn to maybe hit his flush or straight draw.
  • BigChrisElBigChrisEl
    I'm assuming this is still early with the blinds at 60/120 so you are pretty far off the money.

    I might ship here and then have him call with Ah-Jx and catch the flush. (or be pushing into the nuts.)

    Either you are behind or ahead and there is really no card to come on the turn that you would like to see so either ship or fold.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    STR82ACE wrote: »
    Why a check/call on the flop? Unless you had him on KK or AA before the flop, but that doesn't seem likely, a feeler raise of 1/2 pot would tell you a lot about his hand. As it is, you know nothing about his strength, and he gets a cheap look at the turn to maybe hit his flush or straight draw.

    I felt this was actually a horrible flop for his range (limp/call). I think there is a lot of 88/99/JJ in this spot. I am definately not concerned about KK/AA. I figured we were deep enough to check/call and see what direction he went on the turn.....
  • MadDawgMadDawg
    He either has a flush from the river card and trying to get you to throw more into the pot, or he's bluffing. The fact that he didn't raise anything pre-flop means he's probably not holding any top pair. Once he saw the flop, saw a flush draw, and raised.

    I would have folded at this point.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    MadDawg wrote: »
    He either has a flush from the river card and trying to get you to throw more into the pot, or he's bluffing. The fact that he didn't raise anything pre-flop means he's probably not holding any top pair. Once he saw the flop, saw a flush draw, and raised.

    I would have folded at this point.

    1) Fail. I havent told you what the river is yet?
    2) I havent bet, how can he raise me?
    3) Why would you fold if you put villain on a draw?
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Smells totally of AJ with a heart at best....

    I can't see him betting his flush out on the turn if you just call the the flop.

    I raise the flop to see what villian does personally as by him just calling you re-raise I have to eliminate AA or KK or even JJ from his range (unless he has been trappy).

    Position is your friend here.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    blackmagicz wrote: »

    Position is your friend here.

    I am OOP. Not my friend....
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    I am OOP. Not my friend....

    Hence the need to lead out on the flop though imo

    As played, though, I would tend to a fold on the turn. Just too much draw potential.
  • MadDawgMadDawg
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    1) Fail. I havent told you what the river is yet?
    2) I havent bet, how can he raise me?
    3) Why would you fold if you put villain on a draw?
    1)I meant the turn card, not river. No need to be nasty.
    2)By raise, I meant bet.
    3)I meant I would fold after he put that bet down after the turn, not after the flop.
  • DennisGDennisG
    With no read, and having played that tourney a fair bit...AhXh is entirely possible as well...looks like buddy played his trash and hit...or he hit his set of 5's. It isn't that much to walk away from...that being said I would have bet out big on the flop.
  • actyperactyper
    Tough spot but I highly doubt he has a flush. Don't really see too many pot bet semi bet (nut flush draws). On the flop I think he's protecting a hand like KJ, QJ, JT. 88/99/JJ/AJ i'd have him on a preflop raise. The turn bet I think he might have added a flush draw. But size was 88/99 comes back in the picture (pp limper?).
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Wetts1012 wrote: »
    I am OOP. Not my friend....

    My bad....checkraise flop then.....you effect stacks are deep enough to do so, that would get you information.

    By check calling it is costing you too much on the turn. You could easily re-raise to 3000 on that flop and see how fast he calls/or if he ships it in.

    I still think you are ahead here....

    With the line you have take I will bet the turn as a block to see what the villian does.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    actyper wrote: »
    Tough spot but I highly doubt he has a flush. Don't really see too many pot bet semi bet (nut flush draws). On the flop I think he's protecting a hand like KJ, QJ, JT. 88/99/JJ/AJ i'd have him on a preflop raise. The turn bet I think he might have added a flush draw. But size was 88/99 comes back in the picture (pp limper?).

    This is why you win.

    I think the key indicator here is bet sizing, which led me to just calling the flop - and really limited his range to 1) Set or 2) Air. Typical draw betting is not pot. I completely eliminated the 2 card flush draw from his range. Also, AhKh unlikely. Which limits it to Ah10h - pretty tight.

    The the 3rd H comes on the turn and now I have a plan depending on his action.....
  • DennisGDennisG
    And then there is the whole thing about the game...it is a 10 buck KO...I have seen many many crazy stupid hands being called here..most in this tourney don't have a clue on bet sizing, pot odds, draw odds...etc...
    and really limited his range to 1) Set or 2) Air. Typical draw betting is not pot.
    I completely agree here...but, gotta remember what game you are playing again. Ace/rag hearts is not an uncommon call......I suppose though, playing as though everyone understands "proper" play will likely get one farther....
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Ihaveyourname wrote: »
    Ace/rag hearts is not an uncommon call......I suppose though, playing as though everyone understands "proper" play will likely get one farther....

    Agree - 100%.

    So the general concensus is either:

    Bet flop, or checkraise flop - I am OK with this, although information betting is not my thing.

    Folding or jamming turn?
  • DennisGDennisG
    Depending on the day...and what else I have going on...I am ok with either jamming or folding...you don't have that much time invested...but, you do have a healthy stack...Chances are here, I will just let it go...and curse myself afterwards when he makes a donk move and gets knocked out with crap.

    Oh yeah..I would have bet flop..lol

    *consider I am by no means (or think I am) a pro...lol..and my take on the situation is probably that of the "half-donk"..
  • westside8westside8
    Probably bet flop here...while you are right about sets being in his range, you can't forget all the other hands that are in his range here as well that you are still beating.

    As played I think I might just fold turn, but the fact that it's a $10 tournament makes me want to barf thinking about folding an overpair.
  • JohnithJohnith
    This whole tough call on the turn would have been completely avioded if you simply bet the flop. When you check the flop your pretty much saying " i have over cards or a weak pair" , giving your opponent the chance to bet with any 2 cards to try and steal. Check raising the flop would have been sick, then if he repops u can probably feel safer about laying the hand down. On the turn checking again also leaves you in the complete dark of where he is, so on the turn u gotta push or fold.... but when you just have an overpair NEVER slowplay ( in my opinion).
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Johnith wrote: »
    This whole tough call on the turn would have been completely avioded if you simply bet the flop. When you check the flop your pretty much saying " i have over cards or a weak pair" , giving your opponent the chance to bet with any 2 cards to try and steal. Check raising the flop would have been sick, then if he repops u can probably feel safer about laying the hand down. On the turn checking again also leaves you in the complete dark of where he is, so on the turn u gotta push or fold.... but when you just have an overpair NEVER slowplay ( in my opinion).

    Some good points, but some clarifications of my thought process. Which is probably wrong, because I am not very good.

    1) I was not slowplaying. It was a shitty flop for my hand, and I legitimately thought there was a good chance I was behind, even before I check the flop. Betting with the intention of folding to a raise or shove makes no sense to me.

    2) I called the flop because his bet size didnt make sense. And I suck at teh pokers.

    3) I am not in the dark on the turn. I had legitimate plan base on what he did. If he checks behind - I think he has a monster (or at least a hand that crushes me). If he makes a 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet I probably fold. He is looking for value. If he pots I shove that shit, because who pots a set when a scare card hits:

    Wetts1012 has requested TIME
    gott ist stumm: what is the buy in Myk?
    DJ Magik MyK (Observer): $30
    Wetts1012 raises to 10,685, and is all in
    erol1974 calls 6,310, and is all in
    gott ist stumm: is it a rebuy
    Wetts1012 shows [Qd Qh]
    erol1974 shows [7c 9c]
    Uncalled bet of 1,135 returned to Wetts1012
    *** RIVER *** [9h Jh 8c 5h] [6h]
    Wetts1012 shows a flush, Queen high
    erol1974 shows a straight, Nine high
    Wetts1012 wins the pot (22,340) with a flush, Queen high
    DJ Magik MyK (Observer): $30 for rebuys
    DJ Magik MyK (Observer): yea
    erol1974 stands up
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 22,340 | Rake 0
    Board: [9h Jh 8c 5h 6h]
    Seat 1: klj7 (big blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 2: mivgash didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 3: DrunkIndian didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: gott ist stumm didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 5: erol1974 showed [7c 9c] and lost with a straight, Nine high
    Seat 6: TheBulldog3 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 7: luckychip70 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 8: ferdy 1982 (button) didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 9: Wetts1012 (small blind) showed [Qd Qh] and won (22,340) with a flush, Queen high
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    oh man...very nice finish. But honestly, did you have him on such a weak ass hand on the flop? Slow playing paid off for you this time, and his crazy call on the turn is just wild...BUT
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    STR82ACE wrote: »
    oh man...very nice finish. But honestly, did you have him on such a weak ass hand on the flop? Slow playing paid off for you this time, and his crazy call on the turn is just wild...BUT

    Long term losing move - probably, WTF knows. I had no idea what was going on on the flop. After he bets the turn I was fairly confident I was dealing with air or at best the Ah.
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    westside8 wrote: »
    Probably bet flop here...while you are right about sets being in his range, you can't forget all the other hands that are in his range here as well that you are still beating.

    As played I think I might just fold turn, but the fact that it's a $10 tournament makes me want to barf thinking about folding an overpair.

    Set rarely plays that line here for the simple fact they can't figure out the strength of their opponents hand. Most sets check flop and make a monster bet on the turn.

    The key indication here is preflop when the raise comes in and it just flat called. AA or KK re-pop along with most pairs....remember they have both effective deep stacks so big hands will be play bigger.
  • DennisGDennisG
    So...it turns out a typical 10 dollar KO hand chaser...lol. Figures..that is why I hate that tourney...I am not good enough to tell the difference between the donks and the players yet...unless I am taking the time to SS them all.

    NH sir.
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Ihaveyourname wrote: »
    So...it turns out a typical 10 dollar KO hand chaser...lol. Figures..that is why I hate that tourney...I am not good enough to tell the difference between the donks and the players yet...unless I am taking the time to SS them all.

    NH sir.

    The key to low level buy in tournies is volume. On pokerstars I play anywhere between 10-20 a night at least....play them the same way and variance will kick in but for the most part you will be fine.

    Playing 1-2 games a night/week will create the uneasy feeling of what you are describing above...you don't need to SS everyone, you just have to play your hand according to value. Big hands big pots...
  • westside8westside8
    blackmagicz wrote: »
    Set rarely plays that line here for the simple fact they can't figure out the strength of their opponents hand. Most sets check flop and make a monster bet on the turn.

    The key indication here is preflop when the raise comes in and it just flat called. AA or KK re-pop along with most pairs....remember they have both effective deep stacks so big hands will be play bigger.

    On such a draw heavy board, I would bet out my set if the PF raiser checks...and I don't think AA/KK is part of his range at all.
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    westside8 wrote: »
    On such a draw heavy board, I would bet out my set if the PF raiser checks...and I don't think AA/KK is part of his range at all.

    That is you...an above average player. Most people when they flop a set slow play themselves or don't maximize value. Adjust your lines accordingly when it comes to most players at the lower levels. They play abc poker and try to trap people with big hands instead of playing them straight forward.

    Well played either way
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    blackmagicz wrote: »
    That is you...an above average player.

    Have you ever played with Wes, live? You really need to spend some time in Vegas with him.. lol.... :)

    Just kidding son..... hehe
  • KristyKristy
    you're beating aj..I fold.

    edit: reading the other posts now.
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