is this a normal losing streak
ok,started playing 1-2,2-4 on stars last year sometime,by may i had my b.roll up to 1k and feeling great,so i started playing 3-6,by august i still had 1k online and 3k in the bank,american account, only from stars.so the long weekend in august i go to atlantic city,and make 500 in a week playing 3-6.THEN it happens ,i come back from ac and have a tough week on stars not cashing out a dime for the first time in 3 months.no big deal im not worried ,happens to everyone right,wait the following week online b.roll get cut in half to 500.thenthe followng week i make 700 playing 3-6,wow,most ive ever made before this is 400 a week on stars,then i lose 400 and im so confused because this has went on untill no, nov.2 up and down,and no i dont think im going on tilt,i have read all my books over again,took a break for a day or 3 and im playing tonight and am down 200 at the same game i used to destroy.seems everthing is getting cracked from aa to a set of deuces.now my online b.roll is at 964as we speak and i am quitting for the night.id love any advice ,sorry for the bad grammer
Comments
I have won and lost $3000.00 in a 6 month time period, playing 10/20.
My honest advice is play the cards and the people, not the money. As soon as you are worried about loosing money, quit.
Play the right cards and it will come back.
I'm thinking of dropping back down a level until my confidence comes back. Any other suggestions?
First, it appears to me that you are keeping good records. Well done. Good records are, I think, the key to getting good long term results. And, you ran your bankroll up to $4k playing $3-6. Also, a clear indication that you are a winning player.
It looks to me like you made $1K each of your first three months playing $3-6. This is feasible. I have done it (it's how I paid my way into the WSOP). Your next losses and wins appear to me to be within the reach of standard deviation. So, it's possible that you are simply "enjoying" a normal variance.
So, is it standard deviation or has something changed? This is the $64,000 question.
I know that in my own experience I usually suffer through a period of losing after I have enjoyed a period of extraordinary wins. I think it goes like this (1) Get bit in the butt by the variance gods and enjoy a big winning streak, major tournament win, or whatever; (2) conclude that I am an unnassailable poker god that cannot be beat; (3) Start to push too hard because, after all, I am a poker god; (4) realize that I am a losing player because I am pushing too hard; (5) Right the boat and get back to a reasonable win rate; (6) Get bit in the butt by the variance gods and enjoy a big winning streak, major tournament win, or whatever; (7) go back to the beggining and repeat.
So... if you have the ability to see the flaws in your own game you will self-correct. If you do not, get someone you can trust to get a good look at your game.
For me, losing no longer hurts. Playing badly hurts. Last week in the local tournament I got A-A all in against 6-3s. I thought it was a nice play by my opponent. He got unlucky that I had A-A. Then, I got unlucky, and he beat my aces. It didn't bother me one bit. Dissapointing, yes. Frustrating, no.
It took me a long time to become "at peace" with losing, but if you can get there it is liberating.
I was also playing a six handed table at the same time, and was having a horrible time of it. I kept getting outdrawn, by sets on the turn, four card flushes at the river, four card straights at the river, inside straights at the river -- you name it. So, I bring some extra chips to the table to add to my image. I put over a thousand on the table (3/6). I was telling people I was going to bet allot! Almost immediately, I started getting called less. And, then I kept pounding really good hands. Only took a few hours, but I was back on track.
I talk about it because it's almost like your losing streak compressed into a five-hundred hand evening. As soon as the skid started hurting (ie. I dropped 20BB) I needed to do something different. I had a losing image and needed to change it. So, I bought an image, by putting alot of money on the table (for some it's a maniac image, for others it's an intimidating image). Another way of getting an image, is by playing extremely tight. Not just tight, but I'm talking folding ATs & AJs in MP1 without a bat of an eye, unless of course UTG1 and UTG2 have called. Dump all the marginal hands. Now you'll have a really tight image to work with. It won't give you credibility -- ie. people won't cower when they see you raise, but they will notice.
I digress from the real advice. First of all, you haven't played all that long. I found my variance to be really high my first three (maybe even four) years of playing online. Until you've gone through these losing streaks many times, it's hard to know what's bad & good. Yes, others can tell you this is normal. But it's not real, until you've experienced it first hand. So, this is part of the process.
Have a look at my other post http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=2110 on losing streaks.
Right now, I think you're in this psychological hole, where nothing less than building your role to where it was, would be considered good. You're trying to do that in one hand, and every hand you lose is taking away your spirit. You feel like a loser, because you've pissed away your roll, and you keep losing. Each pot you lose supports that notion, and every one you win makes you think that it just wasn't enough. (ok, I could be projecting my feelings when I'm on a losing streak)
When you were winning, you likely had aces cracked many times. Your thinking goes, "hmm.. that really sucked, but I'm still up 20BB and I that sucker showed how badly he plays when.....I'll take advantage of that weakness the next time I spot it". Your thoughts go away from losing the pot, and your personal assessment of yourself, and you focus on the mistake made by the other player. Now, you need to get your focus off yourself, and focus on the weaknessess of other players.
The trouble is that at a 3/6 Pokerstars table, it's really hard to focus on other's weaknesses. There are some good players there. That's why I suggested going to a one cent/two cent heads up table. They are alot of fun, and it only costs about 10 bucks for a couple of hours of entertainment. Try things like raising at the river with a busted draw, or re-raising the turn with absolutely nothing. You'll really start to get a feel for how the other player is thinking. And, since it's a .01/.02 table, there will be many really bad players to beat up. It's fun beating up bad players when you're not feeling so good.
These are just some random thoughts. But, in the end, it has to be fun. And as Dave has suggested, you have to focus on winning, instead of winning money!
I've only been there once, and it was a horrible experience. It was the most lose passive game, with some weak tight players that were hitting.
IMO, when you're on a losing streak, you don't want to be at loose passive table, especially when that passiveness reaches levels of insanity. They think, hmm, there's actually two cards that can help me, and there are two more cards to come, how can I not call! Now, couple that with your hitless streak. You can't bet for value, and you can't make them fold. What can you do at Heron, other than bleed some more money.
It's a bad thing (for me personally) precisely for the reasons you mentioned. When running bad, you're confidence suffers -- at least mine does. Because the play is so simplistic, the confidence suffers even more. You start to think, "hey, if I can't beat this simple game, I'm an idiot". When in reality it's just a waiting game -- waiting for enough hands to let the odds take care of themsleves. However, when on a bad run, that wait becomes unbearable. It feels soooooooooooooooooooooooo longggggggggggggggggggggggg before it will even itself out, and you have so much ground to make up.
I've done some research on gambling. When gambling and you win, the brain releases dopamine in the pleasure part of the brain. There was some research conducted with mice (I know we're not mice, but many act that way) which had the mice play a gambling game with a reasonalbe payout. When the mice were deprived of the payout, they went crazy and began self-destructive behaviour. The researchers made a clear connection to humans, and how we had similar behaviours.
Sound familiar? Winning players win and are rewarded with money. But the other reward is the dopamine in the pleasure part of the brain. Deprive that winning player of winning, and they may start to lose a few bucks. That can be observed. There's also an uncotrollable (I really mean unobservable, but it is difficult to control) force -- the lack of dompamine in the pleasure part of the brain. So, many gamblers will move up in stakes, since the wins at the higher levels will produce more dopamine. If you want to see some of the research, go on the www.twoplustwo.com website and look for my post in psychology.
Now, when you're in a lose passive game at a B&M you may need to wait two hours before you win a big pot and release some dopamine into your system. Add to that the drive time, the wait on the sign-up sheet, and you have a really long wait and a recipe for a huge tiltorama.
This is just what I've experienced. I could be as crazy as the mice in the experiment.
Cheers
Magi
i enoy poker quite a lot and wondered if maybe i had a bit of a problem because I was playing too much. I wasn't losing but I was playing an awful lot for a guy with a regular 9-5 and, anyhow, I was just curious.
the winnings or loss at the limits i play are pretty insignificant to my salary at the best(and worst) of times
reading the post about dopamine made me a bit happier. i think the study is very interesting but I think I view LLHE mostly as a strategy game where the money is a score...and the dopamine applies more (of course, chemically, it applies to everyone) to those that tend towards gambling addiction. (ie those who would rather have dopamine than money)
I recently did some gambling without a real edge doing some casino bonus whoring...I hated it...winning, losing, even, it was very very unpleasant playing a game with no thought (literally..i used a BJ "perfect play" matrix to make every decision). At the end i was basically doubled up having won/lost within a stdev and got the 100% bonus for meeting a wagering requirement. But, I think the real value I derived from this exercise was cementing in my mind that i don't have a gambling problem...I just like strategy games a lot. I would be more impressed if they could design an experiment where the studied were competing in a strategy game that had gambling components and see what kind of chemical reaction there was for making the correct move and having the pride associated (i know chess players get adrenaline rush...but i doubt it's on having made a gamble)
anyhow..i now know i hate gambling bigtime if I don't have an edge ,and even with this huge bonus edge of basially being assure of almost doubling i hated it because I couldnt apply thought (maybe it's like a gov't job
p.s. as an aside...I have recently crossed the line to almost enjoying the bad beat..disappointed yes, still bitch a bit yes...but inside I am sort of beginning to like it..so i am partway out of the cocoon.
I tried to find it, but for some reason it's gone. Must have been the Slansky censor! I have the stuff somewhere, but can't remember where. Funny, I can remember a hand from last year, inluding the actions on every street -- but, I can't remember what I had for lunch.
When I find it, I'll post.
Cheers
Magi
The funny thing is that if you check http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/20questions.html , you only have a problem if you're losing. IMO, it's a joke. Winning poker players don't have a problem?
The key to gambling, is that the result is uncertain. To an extent all games have a degree of uncertainty, and unpredictability. So, I think some strategy games like Risk would fit that category better than a game like Chess, where you're more likely to be able to accurately predict the outcome of the next action. Not sure about strategy games -- interesting thought.
Just wondering about your post. You enjoy poker and hate gambling. No matter how you slice it, poker is gambling. You may have an edge, but it's still gambling.
And, you enjoy bad beats. The ONLY thing good about bad beats, is that your opponent(s) made a mistake(s). It doesn't mean you played the hand correctly. If you can capitalize on their mistakes in futre hands, then it's a good thing. If not, well, it's just a bad beat.
My opponents making mistakes which i can later capitalize on is obviously the reason I have learned to love the bad beat...