Not that I want to get in a pissing contest with you but ...I have been up all night and just getting read to sleep for the day, having said that, you are useless. You provide no reason, you crap all over people, I am telling you what I had been told and would be able to have testimony in court from the 20 or so cops. Now do you think they would testify if they tought in any way they would lose there jobs? The answer is no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like I said I ran an event for them. They are the ones that told me not to worry. You ask for a response to you hand several did, tell us how you can play so bad.
Maybe, but he understood our set up and told me we would not get busted doing this once a month. They were more intrested in clubs. We were a basically a giant home game and unless they got wind of drugs or guns, we were fine.
Prophet 22
This statement does not, on it's face, mean that your game is legal, merely that it is not a big enough target for enforcement of the applicable statutes. This is irrespective of the individual turnout for each tournament, which I know from personal experience were large.
let's not confuse the law with its enforcement. cops have discretion and sometimes they even use it. besides a cop that plays in your game may not be part of the division busting down the door. just because some play at a game doesn't make it legal.
there are no loopholes. if they want to bust up a game, they will bust up a game. i would hope they would target the bigger fish first but obv this is not always the case.
I have sat in the back of a cop car as we drove home while the cop was DRUNK. Do you think he was going to be stopped by fellow officer? With your reasoning, drinking and driving must be legal, too!
I've helped a drunk cop find the bag of blow he dropped on the floor in the basement of a boozecan. therefore: all legal.
As somebody already mentioned, there is no loophole (despite brutal anecdotal evidence presented as fact). How do we know there is no loophole? Because there aren't 35 poker clubs in downtown Toronto. This is not the first discussion of this type to take place. Many smarter minds have already tried to get around it. Until the Ontario government changes their mind it isn't going to happen. Illegal clubs and legal rake free home games, however, will continue to flourish.
FYP
Would there be some players profiting from other players and some players losing to other players? If so, and the government of Ontario is not getting a piece of the action, then it would be considered illegal.
*** ALL LEGAL FORMS OF GAMBLING/GAMING IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO ARE EITHER SANCTIONED/APPROVED BY OR BENEFIT THE COFFERS OF THE GOVERMENT OF ONTARIO ***
13cards wrote: "By the written laws, even a "friendly" wager for money placed between two friends on who will win the next round of golf/catch the biggest fish/call heads or tails correctly is, technically, ILLEGAL!!! Nearly all stag games, home games, bar games, bar pools, "squares", etc. also fall into this category."
Hey 13cards
If you're going come off as an arrogant know-it-all, please have the slightest idea what you're talking about before you do it. All the statements above are patently false. And technically, you need a clue.
The Ontario Government, the OLG and your big head are not the arbitrators of what is legal and illegal in terms of gambling in the province of Ontario. The Criminal Code of Canada, as interpreted by the courts, is.
The relevant sections of the criminal code are s. 201 and s. 204, specifically:
s. 201(1) Every one who keeps a common gaming house or common betting house is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.
Person found in or owner permitting use
(2) Every one who
(a) is found, without lawful excuse, in a common gaming house or common betting house, or
(b) as owner, landlord, lessor, tenant, occupier or agent, knowingly permits a place to be let or used for the purposes of a common gaming house or common betting house,
is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
s.204 (1) Sections 201 and 202 do not apply to
(a) any person or association by reason of his or their becoming the custodian or depository of any money, property or valuable thing staked, to be paid to
(i) the winner of a lawful race, sport, game or exercise...
(b) a private bet between individuals not engaged in any way in the business of betting;
Unless you can show some legislation or case law that runs contrary to this, and by all means, we would like to see it, my rake-free home poker game is legal, my heads or tails wager is legal, my game of chess is legal (as I notice you state any sort of "gaming" in the province is also illegal unless sanctioned by the province - better tell my kids to burn the checkers set), my quarter-pitch game is legal, as is my game of knock-sees, tiddly-winks, fish-catch and my high stakes three-legged race. Legal, legal legal. And I can do them all outside the nanny confines of your precious casino. Stop stumpin' for the man bro. You're harshing everyone's buzz with your baseless garbage.
... Bottom line, the law is made to protect the interests (profits) of the casinos. ANY game that profit is made on is illegal, be it for private gains, or charity or whatever.
Mark
... don't forget to include our Government as well!
Vancouver Island Poker Masters was investigated by the BC Gaming Policy & Enforcement Branch, and while we were found to be operating within the criminal code (I had done much research to ensure this), the BC Government has taken the position that the rental hall is profiting indirectly from gambling through the rental fee we pay them, and therefore are operating a gaming house which is in violation of the criminal code. While this is a huge stretch for the government to make (especially since the fees come from club membership and not gaming proceeds), there is a lot of vagueness around the criminal code in this area and until it is contested in BC the government will continue to hold this position. Unfortunately we can’t expect the rental hall to go to court for us, so our Tournaments have come to an abrupt end unless we can find a location free of rent, or a location owner willing to challenge the government in court, I can’t see any way to carry our poker league (until someone challenges the issue in court).
We still have the option of playing our on-line games (unfortunately this supports the offshore gaming industry, not Vancouver Island's economy).
CC. PART VII - S. 206. (1) Every one is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who:
(e) conducts, manages or is a party to any scheme, contrivance or operation of any kind by which any person, on payment of any sum of money, or the giving of any valuable security, or by obligating himself to pay any sum of money or give any valuable security, shall become entitled under the scheme, contrivance or operation to receive from the person conducting or managing the scheme, contrivance or operation, or any other person, a larger sum of money or amount of valuable security than the sum or amount paid or given, or to be paid or given, by reason of the fact that other persons have paid or given, or obligated themselves to pay or give any sum of money or valuable security under the scheme, contrivance or operation;
Just saying.
Poker (scheme) under any circumstances (unless provincially mandated/sanctioned as in, in a casino - which according to recent calls to the AGCO, poker isn't) is illegal.
Period. Rake, no rake.
However, like others have already said, munis aren't at all interested in the home games amongst friends or even small-ish events like the Royal. They want the clubs, the organized criminals who run the clubs and the offshoots therefrom: drugs, prostitution, money laundering, etc.
So, it's a calcluated risk playing home games and small events but definitely +EV overall when weighed out. Add to that, players who are caught simply playing (attending) an illegal event are usually only subject to summary conviction charges whereas organizers are generally subject to the punishments outlined above.
PS - I too have played with cops both at my home games and at their home games and I have yet to be arrested (touch wood as my current employment would most certainly frown on that).
Funny this thread should be bumped up this particular week.
A carpenter friend of mine (retired OPP) tried telling me on Monday that the laws had changed about 6 months ago allowing charitable gaming licenses for poker. I explained I had heard nothing of this, and given my association with an online poker community very interested in the subject I would have.
He continued to claim he was correct. I bet him $20 that if he could email me a link to the changed legislation I'd pay him out. Never got the email.
Ran into the general contractor we were both working for and asked if the carpenter was going to send me the link. He shook his head and said "He knows he owes you $20, but he says they must have changed it back."
I think my next play will be to ask him to send me a link to the original change, and where it was repealed for a double or nothing.
Poker (scheme) under any circumstances (unless provincially mandated/sanctioned as in, in a casino - which according to recent calls to the AGCO, poker isn't) is illegal.
Period. Rake, no rake.
Not correct, games where no one is profiting, ie all monies go back to the participants (typical home game) are NOT illegal.. It is only if someone is profiting via rake, charge, rental, etc then it becomes an illegal entity and participants are liable to charge.
You are interpreting the above quoted law incorrectly.. IMO anyways..
I think the below exception covers us for home games and even things like the Ryder since no one pays..
"Exception
(2) A place is not a common gaming house within the meaning of paragraph (a) or subparagraph (b)(ii) or (iii) of the definition "common gaming house" in subsection (1) while it is occupied and used by an incorporated genuine social club or branch thereof, if
(a) the whole or any portion of the bets on or proceeds from games played therein is not directly or indirectly paid to the keeper thereof; and
(b) no fee is charged to persons for the right or privilege of participating in the games played therein other than under the authority of and in accordance with the terms of a licence issued by the Attorney General of the province in which the place is situated or by such other person or authority in the province as may be specified by the Attorney General thereof."
"Exception
(2) A place is not a common gaming house within the meaning of paragraph (a) or subparagraph (b)(ii) or (iii) of the definition "common gaming house" in subsection (1) while it is occupied and used by an incorporated genuine social club or branch thereof, if
(a) the whole or any portion of the bets on or proceeds from games played therein is not directly or indirectly paid to the keeper thereof; and
(b) no fee is charged to persons for the right or privilege of participating in the games played therein other than under the authority of and in accordance with the terms of a licence issued by the Attorney General of the province in which the place is situated or by such other person or authority in the province as may be specified by the Attorney General thereof."
Doesn't this mean you have to be running the home game, charity casino, etc. through an incorporated genuine social club? So if you run a home game out of your house, technically it is illegal (even with no rake)? what is the definition of 'a place'?
Doesn't this mean you have to be running the home game, charity casino, etc. through an incorporated genuine social club? So if you run a home game out of your house, technically it is illegal (even with no rake)? what is the definition of 'a place'?
Just checked Criminal Code:
“place”
« local » ou « endroit »
“place” includes any place, whether or not
(a) it is covered or enclosed,
(b) it is used permanently or temporarily, or
(c) any person has an exclusive right of user with respect to it;
I think a place could be a house, a hall (where no rent is paid), someones backyard.. Don't think that matters as long as there is not a charge to the player... Nor is someone making money from food, drink, etc.. In other words I would think that Rogers game is illegal but not necessarily of interest to the authorities..
if the person running the game (with no rake) is different than the person who sells, the food, etc., would that make the game legal (the 'keeper' is not profiting from the game)?
if the person running the game (with no rake) is different than the person who sells, the food, etc., would that make the game legal (the 'keeper' is not profiting from the game)?
My take on this, and it has been discussed ad naseaum before is, as long as someone makes a profit that makes it an illegal game and as such anyone participating in it as player or organizer, is subject to prosecution... Again, that is only my opinion.. But a somewhat educated one...
My take on this, and it has been discussed ad naseaum before is, as long as someone makes a profit that makes it an illegal game and as such anyone participating in it as player or organizer, is subject to prosecution... Again, that is only my opinion.. But a somewhat educated one...
+1.
OMG. How many times and how many ways dies the concept of zero rake, popcorn, wobbly pop, parking, pay per view screenings, surprise bags, exotic entertainers etc etc etc need to be explained!
The only legal way to make money off your home/hall/tent/back alley/roof top patio/card board box/riverboat game is to be better than at least one other player sitting at the table!!!!!
Just so that we're all talking about the same thing, from the same source with definitions here's the link to pdf of CCof C. (it does take a few seconds to load)
Comments
Like I said I ran an event for them. They are the ones that told me not to worry. You ask for a response to you hand several did, tell us how you can play so bad.
Prophet 22
This statement does not, on it's face, mean that your game is legal, merely that it is not a big enough target for enforcement of the applicable statutes. This is irrespective of the individual turnout for each tournament, which I know from personal experience were large.
there are no loopholes. if they want to bust up a game, they will bust up a game. i would hope they would target the bigger fish first but obv this is not always the case.
[/story]
I've helped a drunk cop find the bag of blow he dropped on the floor in the basement of a boozecan. therefore: all legal.
13cards wrote: "By the written laws, even a "friendly" wager for money placed between two friends on who will win the next round of golf/catch the biggest fish/call heads or tails correctly is, technically, ILLEGAL!!! Nearly all stag games, home games, bar games, bar pools, "squares", etc. also fall into this category."
Hey 13cards
If you're going come off as an arrogant know-it-all, please have the slightest idea what you're talking about before you do it. All the statements above are patently false. And technically, you need a clue.
The Ontario Government, the OLG and your big head are not the arbitrators of what is legal and illegal in terms of gambling in the province of Ontario. The Criminal Code of Canada, as interpreted by the courts, is.
The relevant sections of the criminal code are s. 201 and s. 204, specifically:
s. 201(1) Every one who keeps a common gaming house or common betting house is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.
Person found in or owner permitting use
(2) Every one who
(a) is found, without lawful excuse, in a common gaming house or common betting house, or
(b) as owner, landlord, lessor, tenant, occupier or agent, knowingly permits a place to be let or used for the purposes of a common gaming house or common betting house,
is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
s.204 (1) Sections 201 and 202 do not apply to
(a) any person or association by reason of his or their becoming the custodian or depository of any money, property or valuable thing staked, to be paid to
(i) the winner of a lawful race, sport, game or exercise...
(b) a private bet between individuals not engaged in any way in the business of betting;
Unless you can show some legislation or case law that runs contrary to this, and by all means, we would like to see it, my rake-free home poker game is legal, my heads or tails wager is legal, my game of chess is legal (as I notice you state any sort of "gaming" in the province is also illegal unless sanctioned by the province - better tell my kids to burn the checkers set), my quarter-pitch game is legal, as is my game of knock-sees, tiddly-winks, fish-catch and my high stakes three-legged race. Legal, legal legal. And I can do them all outside the nanny confines of your precious casino. Stop stumpin' for the man bro. You're harshing everyone's buzz with your baseless garbage.
I know I'm partly to blame for the 13bashing-institution..but it has gotten tired. He is nowhere near the most 'off his rocker' in this thread.
... don't forget to include our Government as well!
Vancouver Island Poker Masters was investigated by the BC Gaming Policy & Enforcement Branch, and while we were found to be operating within the criminal code (I had done much research to ensure this), the BC Government has taken the position that the rental hall is profiting indirectly from gambling through the rental fee we pay them, and therefore are operating a gaming house which is in violation of the criminal code. While this is a huge stretch for the government to make (especially since the fees come from club membership and not gaming proceeds), there is a lot of vagueness around the criminal code in this area and until it is contested in BC the government will continue to hold this position. Unfortunately we can’t expect the rental hall to go to court for us, so our Tournaments have come to an abrupt end unless we can find a location free of rent, or a location owner willing to challenge the government in court, I can’t see any way to carry our poker league (until someone challenges the issue in court).
We still have the option of playing our on-line games (unfortunately this supports the offshore gaming industry, not Vancouver Island's economy).
WRONG Moose.
Nice 1st post
Btw moose Is right. If anyone other than the players makes money, then it's illegal
(e) conducts, manages or is a party to any scheme, contrivance or operation of any kind by which any person, on payment of any sum of money, or the giving of any valuable security, or by obligating himself to pay any sum of money or give any valuable security, shall become entitled under the scheme, contrivance or operation to receive from the person conducting or managing the scheme, contrivance or operation, or any other person, a larger sum of money or amount of valuable security than the sum or amount paid or given, or to be paid or given, by reason of the fact that other persons have paid or given, or obligated themselves to pay or give any sum of money or valuable security under the scheme, contrivance or operation;
Just saying.
Poker (scheme) under any circumstances (unless provincially mandated/sanctioned as in, in a casino - which according to recent calls to the AGCO, poker isn't) is illegal.
Period. Rake, no rake.
However, like others have already said, munis aren't at all interested in the home games amongst friends or even small-ish events like the Royal. They want the clubs, the organized criminals who run the clubs and the offshoots therefrom: drugs, prostitution, money laundering, etc.
So, it's a calcluated risk playing home games and small events but definitely +EV overall when weighed out. Add to that, players who are caught simply playing (attending) an illegal event are usually only subject to summary conviction charges whereas organizers are generally subject to the punishments outlined above.
PS - I too have played with cops both at my home games and at their home games and I have yet to be arrested (touch wood as my current employment would most certainly frown on that).
A carpenter friend of mine (retired OPP) tried telling me on Monday that the laws had changed about 6 months ago allowing charitable gaming licenses for poker. I explained I had heard nothing of this, and given my association with an online poker community very interested in the subject I would have.
He continued to claim he was correct. I bet him $20 that if he could email me a link to the changed legislation I'd pay him out. Never got the email.
Ran into the general contractor we were both working for and asked if the carpenter was going to send me the link. He shook his head and said "He knows he owes you $20, but he says they must have changed it back."
I think my next play will be to ask him to send me a link to the original change, and where it was repealed for a double or nothing.
I love taking money off stubborn ex-cops.
Not correct, games where no one is profiting, ie all monies go back to the participants (typical home game) are NOT illegal.. It is only if someone is profiting via rake, charge, rental, etc then it becomes an illegal entity and participants are liable to charge.
You are interpreting the above quoted law incorrectly.. IMO anyways..
I think the below exception covers us for home games and even things like the Ryder since no one pays..
"Exception
(2) A place is not a common gaming house within the meaning of paragraph (a) or subparagraph (b)(ii) or (iii) of the definition "common gaming house" in subsection (1) while it is occupied and used by an incorporated genuine social club or branch thereof, if
(a) the whole or any portion of the bets on or proceeds from games played therein is not directly or indirectly paid to the keeper thereof; and
(b) no fee is charged to persons for the right or privilege of participating in the games played therein other than under the authority of and in accordance with the terms of a licence issued by the Attorney General of the province in which the place is situated or by such other person or authority in the province as may be specified by the Attorney General thereof."
Doesn't this mean you have to be running the home game, charity casino, etc. through an incorporated genuine social club? So if you run a home game out of your house, technically it is illegal (even with no rake)? what is the definition of 'a place'?
Just checked Criminal Code:
« local » ou « endroit »
“place” includes any place, whether or not
(a) it is covered or enclosed,
(b) it is used permanently or temporarily, or
(c) any person has an exclusive right of user with respect to it;
My take on this, and it has been discussed ad naseaum before is, as long as someone makes a profit that makes it an illegal game and as such anyone participating in it as player or organizer, is subject to prosecution... Again, that is only my opinion.. But a somewhat educated one...
so if I am having a losing session when the club gets busted, no charges can be laid since no profit
+1.
OMG. How many times and how many ways dies the concept of zero rake, popcorn, wobbly pop, parking, pay per view screenings, surprise bags, exotic entertainers etc etc etc need to be explained!
The only legal way to make money off your home/hall/tent/back alley/roof top patio/card board box/riverboat game is to be better than at least one other player sitting at the table!!!!!
Believe as you would like, I'm not going to argue.. Because the club is profiting, not you, is what makes the game illegal, you should know that.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C-46.pdf