I am bad at Donkaments
Hey, I've thought this through and am gonna throw it out for discussion anyway. I am a 6 max cash game donk.
Played in the $330 tourney at Sarnia yesterday. Played fairly well right up until the hand that crippled me. In 2 hours at the table there were 3 pre-flop 3 bets...all courtesy of yours truly. Live Players are so bad IMO.
100-200 25 ante
I steal a bunch of pots pre-flop with an open and no callers. Then I take one down with a 3-bet. Next hand I raise AKs UTG and call a shove from a shortish stack in the cut-off. He flops a set of Jacks and I lose $3200 have about $4700 left. This gives an idea of my image at the table.
3 hands later OTB. UTG raises to $650 folds to me with AQdiamonds. He has about $4300. He is younger and seems fairly competent although he is new to our table. I figure his range is a bit wider than normal because this table is so passive since he has been here. I figure him for AJ+, 88+. I call and see a flop.
Ks 8h 4d ($1825)
He leads for $650 which I figure him do with virtually his entire range so I call to see what he does on the turn.
Turn is a 5s putting 2 flush draw on board.
He checks, I shove figuring he never gives me a free card with the 2 flush draws if he has AK and I can get him to fold 99-QQ. He snap calls with a set of 8's and I'm crippled.
Now, the more I think about it a 3 bet pre-flop to about $2100 lets me fold to a shove and still leaves me with a perfect sized stack for push-botting at this nit festival. He only re-shoves JJ+ or AK here I'm guessing.
Thoughts on that re-raise? bet size? Ranges given?
Played in the $330 tourney at Sarnia yesterday. Played fairly well right up until the hand that crippled me. In 2 hours at the table there were 3 pre-flop 3 bets...all courtesy of yours truly. Live Players are so bad IMO.
100-200 25 ante
I steal a bunch of pots pre-flop with an open and no callers. Then I take one down with a 3-bet. Next hand I raise AKs UTG and call a shove from a shortish stack in the cut-off. He flops a set of Jacks and I lose $3200 have about $4700 left. This gives an idea of my image at the table.
3 hands later OTB. UTG raises to $650 folds to me with AQdiamonds. He has about $4300. He is younger and seems fairly competent although he is new to our table. I figure his range is a bit wider than normal because this table is so passive since he has been here. I figure him for AJ+, 88+. I call and see a flop.
Ks 8h 4d ($1825)
He leads for $650 which I figure him do with virtually his entire range so I call to see what he does on the turn.
Turn is a 5s putting 2 flush draw on board.
He checks, I shove figuring he never gives me a free card with the 2 flush draws if he has AK and I can get him to fold 99-QQ. He snap calls with a set of 8's and I'm crippled.
Now, the more I think about it a 3 bet pre-flop to about $2100 lets me fold to a shove and still leaves me with a perfect sized stack for push-botting at this nit festival. He only re-shoves JJ+ or AK here I'm guessing.
Thoughts on that re-raise? bet size? Ranges given?
Comments
I think AQ was over played here personally. You have a lot of fold equity on the flop to get away from your hand when you miss the board completely. The thought of trying to bluff a new player at the table is rather difficult because you can't verify his range yet and he can't put you on a hand(if he is a smart player capable of laying down hands)
If you decide to re-raise the flop that can also get you in a tight spot as well because even if you get cold called and that flop hits what do you do??
I like the call preflop to see a flop in position but once I miss I release. There is no point of getting tangled up with a new player when you haven't verified their range.
You also have to figure out your hand value too at this point. With a raise UTG my first instance is to put a player on a PP or A-10 (low value) to AK (usually my standard value for someone raising UTG) so with my AQ in this position the only thing I am hoping to flop is a Queen due to the fact that:
1.If an ace flops I don't know if my kicker is any good
2.If a king flops even if I hit my Ace on the turn I can't know if I am any good.
You really have to play carefully with AQ and it is one of those hands I like to control pot size with when I am betting/calling especially when one of my cards hit. It is also one of the top 3 hands people get knocked out of a tourney playing with.
We all know that the way I played my hand is bad. Re-raising is bad. Calling is good but I can only continue if I flop a queen?
If all this is true. I am further ahead to fold pre-flop wouldn't you say?
In this situation it was only because UTG flopped huge that the decision was easy for him. In any other instance where you make that same move and he doesn't flop huge you take it down.
Most people lay down middle PP when an overcard hits on the assumption "oh he bet it, must have it"
LOL
1. How can you consider a re-raise with these stack sizes? You have 4700 and want to bump it to 2100. Okay a fold by him is good.
1a. A call would leave you with 2600 and a ~4500 pot. You miss the flop he checks, now what? He shoves the flop to give you calling odds of 7100:2600 which is almost 3:1. If you ever find yourself in this position, you know the preflop action went very wrong.
1b. He shoves your 2100 preflop. Again, you have almost 3:1 to call that shove which you should do with pretty well any two cards. If you find yourself in this position, you can be fairly certain that you should have shoved in the first place.
2. Folding AQs here is not as bad as it sounds.
3. Calling here is okay but it can lead you into trouble, especially with AQ and the reputation it has (btw, that reputation is not a myth). So you miss the flop and UTG bets into just like he should wether he hit a home run or whiffed. Seeing as this is a live game, when he bets here, I cap my cards cross my arms and take a long hard look at this dude. What I'm trying find is a reason not to fold. It's unlikely I'll find it but hollywooding here is not so bad at all. Then muck like you were giving up the nuts.
4. Look again at your shove on the turn. Just a quick look at the pot and stacks and it looked like he had 2:1 odds to call your shove. I think you way overestimated that 99-QQ or even AK would fold here, espcially given those pot odds. And you shoved with possibly no outs. I have improved my tourney play by not shoving a potentially outless hand unless I am a mega stack pushing others around. And even then, I'm careful to be sure I am not offering good pot odds and am facing a medium hand.
Sorry to be so critical but I feel the only mistake you didn't make in this hand was calling on the flop however that lead to everything else.
I appreciate your input. This thread never really found any legs and I am honestly no smarter than I was before.
I consider the re-raise for several reasons. This table is horribly weak-tight and it is a live table. This is an NL tourney at a casino that only spreads limit and the play is really weak. My stack if I raise and fold to a push is perfect for push-botting and I can likely short-stack ninja my way back into a stack easily.
If he calls my re-raise I know exactly where I am at (crushed) and if he pushes I know where I'm at (crushed-flipping at best).
As far as pushing preflop my stack was an awkward size for it. I would be making a raise of 6X his pre-flop open (I have him covered so this is effective stacks) and it really reeks of a big Ace.
I know what you are saying about the odds he is getting on my push. I would never do it online. The only problem is in a live tourney with a weak field I see the under-pairs folding here like ALWAYS. "ZOMG - Tourney life," and all that nonsense.
Any who that's my reasoning warts and all. Not saying it is correct just that I had a reason for the hand even if it was the wrong one.
I am certainly advocating either push or fold here. That decision is really a gut one at the time and don't think many could help you out there. It depends on whether the blinds are likely to fold, if this guy saw you fold the previous three hands when he got to the table, how comfortable this guy looks right now, how well you can shove in your chips in a steady manner and then sit relaxed in your seat staring at the cloth, etc.
So what I can summarize is folding is not so bad, calling is ok but be careful and probably get out if you don't hit, shoving is not so bad and reraising is completely wrong. And the only reason calling is ok is that you have position.
Also think of it this way. If you fold or shove, you have no further decisions and cannot therefore make a mistake. If you call, you can make a mistake on the flop (like you did). If you reraise, you could make a mistake by folding to his reraise (which it would have been for many reasons).
If you keep the game simple, you will do better and make less mistakes. Plan ahead. If you call there and the flop comes A T 2, what are you going to do? What if it comes K Q 9? What if it comes K 8 4 with two diamonds? When you are making your preflop decision, you should also be thinking about this sort of thing. What if you miss the flop completely? What if he bets? What if he checks?
You probably already do this on many hands without even thinking. For example you are LP with 3 limpers and you have 22. You call and the flop comes A T 6. See you already knew what you were going to do on the flop. If it didn't have a 2 or a miracle straight, you are going to fold. That's an easy one, either you hit a set and build a big pot or miss a set and fold.
Well you should do this on virtually every hand before you enter the pot. It's just that give the situation in the hand you described, there were more possibilities so you have to give it more thought.