Two limpers, a raise, 2 flat calls and a shove behind me. I have single pair here and I am pretty wary. The side pot is 4.5k. Not worth betting into. The board is safe and I'm OOP. No need to go broke on this flop. If I am behind the shove, 20k to win 4.5k is ridonkulous. Easy check, even 10k lets me know where I stand here. I can watch my opponents and decide after.
btw I watched Mark play this hand and I hated his insta-call of the shove. I didn't even get a chance to make any comments. I don't care if you decide to shove but you have a minute to think about it at least. Use your brain, not your hand - even though that gets the most practice.
Two limpers, a raise, 2 flat calls and a shove behind me. I have single pair here and I am pretty wary. The side pot is 4.5k. Not worth betting into. The board is safe and I'm OOP. No need to go broke on this flop. If I am behind the shove, 20k to win 4.5k is ridonkulous. Easy check, even 10k lets me know where I stand here. I can watch my opponents and decide after.
Unless you plan to fold to a single bet, why risk the chance of giving free cards for flush/straight/combo draws to get there?
Really? I would think someone with KK behind DrTyore in this spot will want to stick in a raise to isolate, and also to get rid of hands like Ax in that spot.
Not me, because most people will asume that someone might have AJ or something like that (not saying AJ cuz there was one, thats what i would just guess at) and unless all in i dont think it would push AJ off (depending on how the AJ is playing, but with no reads.. you can assume he would see a flop).
and if he goes all in, he dosen't know if pocket aces if behind him (he assumes there isin't but maybe he wants to be safe).
But that's true, there really is no "right" way of looking at it, everyone has there own perspective. I think yours is better in most cases to be honest, I just like to always look at the possibilities of a higher PP when I have JJ,QQ or (but rarely) KK.
The idea of a preflop raise is to narrow the field. In spite of your raise there was 4 of you to the pot. This should have been alarm bells right there. Pocket Kings was a donk for not reraising the preflop. After the flop you missed it. Donks play all kinds of cards and a str8 could have been made with a 6 3 or 6 8 or they could have been on a st8 draw or flush draw. This was a tricky flop. You decided to come out betting where I think you should have checked. I forget your position but that would certainly be a factor in getting information as to why you were called. In the end you were sucked out on. You were turned and rivered. This person was committing suicide with his chips and lucked out on you. There is nothing you could have don but not try to bluff the flop. You made a bad bluff and paid the price.
Ya but the 25K in the main pot is worth protecting. I wouldn't fear AA/KK given the preflop action, but str draws, sets, overcards are all reasonable. I go broke like everyone else here. IMO too many people are calling their action in hindsight based off results. If you're truly thinking check-fold on this flop, then why bother raising preflop in the first place? You might as well play weak-tight poker and limp all pairs for set value, and limp AK and fold whenever you don't flop top 2 or broadway. Obviously pushing AA, KK preflop because you want everyone to fold preflop so they don't suck out on you.
Your posts continue to exemplify your understanding of the game.... re-read the hand history there.
Mark
You missed the flop and you couldn't accept someone had you beat so you went out betting and were sucked out on. Aside from being sucked out on this flop should maybe have slowed your betting for the fact someone could have flopped a st8 or at best was on a st8 or flush draw. Depending on your chip stack you should have just pushed all in. Maybe then you would have pushed out your suck out players. For you to think you had the best hand after a flop shows your level of poker. What is a pair? Great preflop but once the cards are dealt in a multiway pot there is no way a pair will cut it.
Ya but the 25K in the main pot is worth protecting. I wouldn't fear AA/KK given the preflop action, but str draws, sets, overcards are all reasonable. I go broke like everyone else here. IMO too many people are calling their action in hindsight based off results. If you're truly thinking check-fold on this flop, then why bother raising preflop in the first place? You might as well play weak-tight poker and limp all pairs for set value, and limp AK and fold whenever you don't flop top 2 or broadway. Obviously pushing AA, KK preflop because you want everyone to fold preflop so they don't suck out on you.
I raise preflop to get heads up against one person. I raise preflop to get position post-flop. None of that happened. Now I am in bad position in a multi-way pot. I raise preflop to demonstrate the strength of my hand but I still have all this action behind. Caution is warranted. Plan A didn't work. Move on to plan B. Continuing on with Plan A and just hammering blindly at a pot is stupid.
Protecting it against what? This is a pretty safe flop. No way anyone is on a straight draw here. I'm up against overs, and most of them seem to be out. I might be against a set already. I got two more streets to get my chips in. Odds are, anyone calling here has me beat already. To knock off a flush draw is going to cost me most of my chips. You don't have to hammer every pot to play winning poker. I prefer to use my post-flop skills and ability to read my opponents to keep me out of trouble. I've committed 6.5k of my chips so far. That's nothing. I don't need to win this hand to win this tournament. It's a single pair. I'm in a multi-way pot and I'm OOP. It sucks. That's poker.
I raise preflop to get heads up against one person. I raise preflop to get position post-flop. None of that happened. Now I am in bad position in a multi-way pot. I raise preflop to demonstrate the strength of my hand but I still have all this action behind. Caution is warranted. Plan A didn't work. Move on to plan B. Continuing on with Plan A and just hammering blindly at a pot is stupid.
Protecting it against what? This is a pretty safe flop. No way anyone is on a straight draw here. I'm up against overs, and most of them seem to be out. I might be against a set already. I got two more streets to get my chips in. Odds are, anyone calling here has me beat already. To knock off a flush draw is going to cost me most of my chips. You don't have to hammer every pot to play winning poker. I prefer to use my post-flop skills and ability to read my opponents to keep me out of trouble. I've committed 6.5k of my chips so far. That's nothing. I don't need to win this hand to win this tournament. It's a single pair. I'm in a multi-way pot and I'm OOP. It sucks. That's poker.
I raise preflop to get heads up against one person. I raise preflop to get position post-flop. None of that happened. Now I am in bad position in a multi-way pot. I raise preflop to demonstrate the strength of my hand but I still have all this action behind. Caution is warranted. Plan A didn't work. Move on to plan B. Continuing on with Plan A and just hammering blindly at a pot is stupid.
Protecting it against what? This is a pretty safe flop. No way anyone is on a straight draw here. I'm up against overs, and most of them seem to be out. I might be against a set already. I got two more streets to get my chips in. Odds are, anyone calling here has me beat already. To knock off a flush draw is going to cost me most of my chips. You don't have to hammer every pot to play winning poker. I prefer to use my post-flop skills and ability to read my opponents to keep me out of trouble. I've committed 6.5k of my chips so far. That's nothing. I don't need to win this hand to win this tournament. It's a single pair. I'm in a multi-way pot and I'm OOP. It sucks. That's poker.
So you check here, given the hands, the player with KK will probably bet. Do you just fold here when the chances are your hand is most likely good...vulnerable, but good. (this is based on our assumptions on what our opponents have, and not what he actually has)
Edited: In addition, do you not see a hand like 99 - JJ, a hand that will cold-cald/limp in and call a raise, try to flop a set/overpair in the opponent's possible holdings as well?
I'm not saying I don't go broke here as well. I'd like to see what my opponents do first.
Checking on a safe flop like this is a good way to mix up your play. If he is ahead, he is way ahead and can easily give a free card. If he is behind the betting may let him know. I think it is better than betting 20k and giving the old crying call 'oops I'm pot committed now'.
It is a dry side. The dude with KK just flat called. People do stupid things. The pot might even get checked down. The other thing is that with a player allin, if you fold, you get to find out what the pushy dude had regardless.
I know now that the guy behind you had KK but here's my 2cents.
Not enough of a bet pre, too much post. Given what you did differently on those two points- you go broke.
Raising more pre pushes out a few of the more speculative possibilities and probably narrows the KK donks range so much that you get away with a reasonable stack left when/if he goes nuts post flop. In a mp pot I don't know that I'm happy to get all my chips in here.
In my humble opinion, you made the correct play(s). After the turn, you were basically pot committed and had to make it expensive for anyone to chase their str8 or flush on the flop. Bad timing or u didn't get agood read on your opponent.
Comments
With 2 limpers in the pot I would have raised to 7600 preflop. If KK flat calls like he did I still go broke on the flop.
I don't like your bet on the flop. If you're calling a push, why not just push yourself? AK/AQ/AJ might not believe you've got the goods
Sucks that you got busted by a Leafs fan... Go Sens Go!!!!!!!
/g2
btw I watched Mark play this hand and I hated his insta-call of the shove. I didn't even get a chance to make any comments. I don't care if you decide to shove but you have a minute to think about it at least. Use your brain, not your hand - even though that gets the most practice.
Unless you plan to fold to a single bet, why risk the chance of giving free cards for flush/straight/combo draws to get there?
Not me, because most people will asume that someone might have AJ or something like that (not saying AJ cuz there was one, thats what i would just guess at) and unless all in i dont think it would push AJ off (depending on how the AJ is playing, but with no reads.. you can assume he would see a flop).
and if he goes all in, he dosen't know if pocket aces if behind him (he assumes there isin't but maybe he wants to be safe).
But that's true, there really is no "right" way of looking at it, everyone has there own perspective. I think yours is better in most cases to be honest, I just like to always look at the possibilities of a higher PP when I have JJ,QQ or (but rarely) KK.
Ya but the 25K in the main pot is worth protecting. I wouldn't fear AA/KK given the preflop action, but str draws, sets, overcards are all reasonable. I go broke like everyone else here. IMO too many people are calling their action in hindsight based off results. If you're truly thinking check-fold on this flop, then why bother raising preflop in the first place? You might as well play weak-tight poker and limp all pairs for set value, and limp AK and fold whenever you don't flop top 2 or broadway. Obviously pushing AA, KK preflop because you want everyone to fold preflop so they don't suck out on you.
Your posts continue to exemplify your understanding of the game.... re-read the hand history there.
Mark
Not even worth the time to respond to that post...
You missed the flop and you couldn't accept someone had you beat so you went out betting and were sucked out on. Aside from being sucked out on this flop should maybe have slowed your betting for the fact someone could have flopped a st8 or at best was on a st8 or flush draw. Depending on your chip stack you should have just pushed all in. Maybe then you would have pushed out your suck out players. For you to think you had the best hand after a flop shows your level of poker. What is a pair? Great preflop but once the cards are dealt in a multiway pot there is no way a pair will cut it.
This message is hidden because dalini is on your ignore list.
I raise preflop to get heads up against one person. I raise preflop to get position post-flop. None of that happened. Now I am in bad position in a multi-way pot. I raise preflop to demonstrate the strength of my hand but I still have all this action behind. Caution is warranted. Plan A didn't work. Move on to plan B. Continuing on with Plan A and just hammering blindly at a pot is stupid.
Protecting it against what? This is a pretty safe flop. No way anyone is on a straight draw here. I'm up against overs, and most of them seem to be out. I might be against a set already. I got two more streets to get my chips in. Odds are, anyone calling here has me beat already. To knock off a flush draw is going to cost me most of my chips. You don't have to hammer every pot to play winning poker. I prefer to use my post-flop skills and ability to read my opponents to keep me out of trouble. I've committed 6.5k of my chips so far. That's nothing. I don't need to win this hand to win this tournament. It's a single pair. I'm in a multi-way pot and I'm OOP. It sucks. That's poker.
Prophet :2h :2s
So you check here, given the hands, the player with KK will probably bet. Do you just fold here when the chances are your hand is most likely good...vulnerable, but good. (this is based on our assumptions on what our opponents have, and not what he actually has)
Edited: In addition, do you not see a hand like 99 - JJ, a hand that will cold-cald/limp in and call a raise, try to flop a set/overpair in the opponent's possible holdings as well?
Checking on a safe flop like this is a good way to mix up your play. If he is ahead, he is way ahead and can easily give a free card. If he is behind the betting may let him know. I think it is better than betting 20k and giving the old crying call 'oops I'm pot committed now'.
It is a dry side. The dude with KK just flat called. People do stupid things. The pot might even get checked down. The other thing is that with a player allin, if you fold, you get to find out what the pushy dude had regardless.
I know now that the guy behind you had KK but here's my 2cents.
Not enough of a bet pre, too much post. Given what you did differently on those two points- you go broke.
Raising more pre pushes out a few of the more speculative possibilities and probably narrows the KK donks range so much that you get away with a reasonable stack left when/if he goes nuts post flop. In a mp pot I don't know that I'm happy to get all my chips in here.