Did I really play this hand so badly?

esool

Man, I have been playing shitty lately.
I have been out of town for the long weekend and I come home ready to play some solid focussed poker...Untill this hand I guess.. :banghead:

$20 + $2. 1 table sit n go:

PokerStars Game #588255174: Tournament #2241576, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV
(50/100) - 2004/08/02 - 23:25:57 (ET)
Table '2241576 1' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: zachary muk (1100 in chips)
Seat 2: ESJAYKAY (2895 in chips)
Seat 6: lwltlp (2660 in chips)
Seat 4: JabaDaba44 (3865 in chips)
Seat 5: esool (2980 in chips)
JabaDaba44: posts small blind 50
esool: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to esool [Ks Kh]
lwltlp: folds
zachary muk: folds
ESJAYKAY: folds
JabaDaba44: raises 300 to 400
esool: raises 300 to 700
JabaDaba44: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [5s 6d 5c]
JabaDaba44: bets 300
esool: raises 300 to 600
JabaDaba44: raises 700 to 1300
esool: calls 700
*** TURN *** [5s 6d 5c] [Ac]
JabaDaba44: bets 1100
esool: calls 980 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5s 6d 5c Ac] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JabaDaba44: shows [Ad 5h] (four of a kind, Fives)
esool: shows [Ks Kh] (a full house, Fives full of Kings)
JabaDaba44 collected 5960 from pot

When the A "scare card" hit and Jaba puts me all in I figure it is an over bet....I figured wrong.

Who the hell raises with A5o in the SB?! :banghead: I am still cracking up over this one.

Anyone here able to get away from this hand?

sinc

when he raised pre flop i would have moved in on him, and then had he called with that hand its just a shitty beat. Once you see that ace though I would go running personally.

Tigerscott

Why not push all in PF?

Big J

Wow, I played a very similar hand in a sit n' go on Party this afternoon (although I was on the other side of it, and played it differently than your guy)...I caught A6o in the SB and limped in (I had the biggest stack at the table at the time), flop came 5 6 6, not wanting to scare away any potential customers and wanting to get some more information I checked as did a couple of people after me, someone in middle position made it 150 to go (could be the other 6 I thought) and everyone folded to the button who called and then I called and everone else folded to the original bettor. The turn is another 5, I check again, the bettor from the first round fires another 200 chips into the pot (leaving him 300) and the button calls again (at this point I figure they probabbly both have a 5 and just made their boats) I call. The river brings the other 6 for me (and a full house on board)...I lead the betting for the first time and fire 300 chips into the pot, the original bettor calls all in and the button reraises me all his chips as I sit there in complete disbelief, why don't I ever get people going all in like this in real life when I have the nuts? So as it turned out the original bettor did have a 5 but with the river he was playing the board assuming that I was too, and the button had an overpair (I'll bet his eyes lit up when the board made a full house with a big pot )

As far as your hand esool, when that A hit and he still bet into you, you probabbly should have run for cover with the chips you had left and tried to rebuild. I agree with sinc about preflop though, you should have rereraised him all in, there was really only one hand you should have been scared of.

BBC Z

Who the hell raises with A5o in the SB?!

Looks to me like he was on a blind steal (It was 5 handed so any ace is a relatively strong hand against a random BB hand) and felt that your re-raise was a re-steal attempt or could have thought his ace was good.. so he called.

Then he got lucky and flopped a monster.. tough luck. I would have lost all my chips on that one.

As for the people who say to re-raise all-in preflop.. I dont know about that play. You've got KK. You want this guy to play with you. You aren't really looking to just pick up the blinds.

Personally, I would have moved all-in on the flop and got knocked out..

esool

Yes, I now think I should have pushed all in pre-flop or at least made a much bigger raise. Let him make a tough/stupid decision..
Thanks for the help guys!

ScottyZ

I think you've got to raise more than just the minimum with premium hands. Just call here if you want the action (you don't IMO), as it will disguise your hand much better.

In my experience, a NL situation where I want to bet or raise the minimum amount allowed is an anomaly.

I much prefer moving all-in here (or making it at least 1,000 more to go), partially because you have a premium hand, but also to send a strong psychological "don't you dare steal my blind" message to the SB, and the entire table.

If he folds, great. You just made +500 chips with no risk. If he calls you with a hand other than AA, you're a monster favorite.

As for how the hand actually went, I don't see myself getting away from the hand with KK at any point in the hand. Including the turn.

ScottyZ

NurseHoliday

Could you elaborate on why u wouldn't bail out after the A hits on the turn? What is your thinking....too much invested already-too late to turn back or more a function of you think his betting the A is a bluff?

ScottyZ

NurseHoliday wrote:

Could you elaborate on why u wouldn't bail out after the A hits on the turn? What is your thinking....too much invested already-too late to turn back or more a function of you think his betting the A is a bluff?

Mostly because it's hard to believe that the opponent is playing a bare Ace (or even A6) like this on the flop:

*** FLOP *** [5s 6d 5c]
JabaDaba44: bets 300
esool: raises 300 to 600
JabaDaba44: raises 700 to 1300
esool: calls 700

Don't forget that this is all if/then style analysis. I never actually have to make a decision on the turn myself because I'm all-in on that flop if I'm not already so pre-flop. But *if* I am magically transorted to the turn with the action as it has occurred, I'm not folding the KK because, based on the action so far (the flop in particular), I'm thinking it's very unlikely that my opponent has an Ace here.

A scare card falling which doesn't have a reasonable chance of helping your opponent isn't really all that scary to me. (Indeed, the Ace is actually no help to your opponent in this hand.)

Also, after being magically transported to the turn, I have to read *myself* as not being capable of and/or wanting to make a big laydown in this hand. Folding to the 700 chip flop re-raise would have been the time for this kind of heroism. :cool:

ScottyZ

NurseHoliday

A scare card falling which doesn't have a reasonable chance of helping your opponent isn't really all that scary to me. (Indeed, the Ace is actually no help to your opponent in this hand.)

At the turn itself, the Ace makes a full house for the opponent....so it was very helpful to him, thus explaining the strong bet, at the time. As it turns out, the Ace wasn't relevant after the River, but on the turn it made for a scary hand.

I dunno...I certainly have limited playing experience compared to most on here, but in my limited experience I have seen lots of naked ace play. I myself would have been tempted to muck it, but it depends on the other player, my mood, the phases of the moon, etc.

Thanks for the 2 cents Scotty.

ScottyZ

At the turn itself, the Ace makes a full house for the opponent....so it was very helpful to him, thus explaining the strong bet, at the time. As it turns out, the Ace wasn't relevant after the River, but on the turn it made for a scary hand.

I guess I was thinking that the KK has 2 outs on the flop, and that doesn't change when the turn Ace falls. It's true that the poker hand value goes up to a full house from three of a kind, but the relative strength (and outs) have stayed the same.

If anything, I think the Ace hurts the A5 since the Ace falling on the turn improves the hand if the A5 is up against 65, but puts the A5 behind AA, the latter hand being much more reasonable based on the action so far. There is no change in the status of the A5 versus any other hand, other than the tiny improvement to 1 out from 0 outs against 66. The Ace falling may also generate action against a bare Ace (or A6), but it isn't too likely that either opponent has this hand after the flop.

I dunno...I certainly have limited playing experience compared to most on here, but in my limited experience I have seen lots of naked ace play. I myself would have been tempted to muck it, but it depends on the other player, my mood, the phases of the moon, etc.

True enough. People will play badly. But, I doubt even a bad player with a bare Ace would play the flop in this way. Sure, a bad player may bet out a small amount on the flop with an Ace as some kind of ineffective bluff, or misguided value bet. When raised the minimum, a bad player would certainly not re-raise a smallish amount (700) with just a bare Ace.

It's the specific sizes of the bets that matter here. A bad (or good) player who is trying to bluff at the pot will either give it up after the raise, or play back for a huge amount, probably all-in. The 700 re-raise reeks of a value bet, whether coming from a bad *or* good player. A bad player will either just call (or *maybe* fold) with an unpaired Ace instead of raising another 700. A good player will either give the hand up after being raised on the flop, or bet much more on the re-raise if he/she decides to follow through with the bluff.

ScottyZ