Underground Casino's:What do you think of them?

ReefAquarium

I'd like to hear the views of some of the forum members about underground casino's.

Here in Toronto there are a lot of them.
They typically spread 1/2 NL with a min $40-$50 buyin



I am a losing player at these places.

Online at $1/2NL I'm winning at $8 per hundred hands (a couple of bucks an hour or so)

Here's why I think I win online and lose live.

The rake is huge. Often as high as 10% up to a max $7.

To make matters worse some of them also have a jackpot of $1 / raked hand. This adds to the variance :-(

Are these places safe?
Have any poker places in Toronto been raided/robbed?

Anyone have any suggestions on how to beat these games?

I suspect these games are not beatable long term by anyone who would not be better off playing somewhere else since the rake+jackpot+tip is too much to overcome except for the top players who would be making more money if they played higher or online.

BigChrisEl

ReefAquarium wrote:

I'd like to hear the views of some of the forum members about underground casino's.

Here in Toronto there are a lot of them.
They typically spread 1/2 NL with a min $40-$50 buyin



I am a losing player at these places.

Online at $1/2NL I'm winning at $8 per hundred hands (a couple of bucks an hour or so)

Here's why I think I win online and lose live.

The rake is huge. Often as high as 10% up to a max $7.

To make matters worse some of them also have a jackpot of $1 / raked hand. This adds to the variance :-(

Are these places safe?
Have any poker places in Toronto been raided/robbed?

Anyone have any suggestions on how to beat these games?

I suspect these games are not beatable long term by anyone who would not be better off playing somewhere else since the rake+jackpot+tip is too much to overcome except for the top players who would be making more money if they played higher or online.

I'm thinking that you may be giving off tells....nothing to do with the place you are playing at. I am a much more successful player live then on-line and the reason is I pick up information (tells) from other players beyond their betting habits.

beanie42

ReefAquarium wrote:

I suspect these games are not beatable long term by anyone who would not be better off playing somewhere else since the rake+jackpot+tip is too much to overcome except for the top players who would be making more money if they played higher or online.

I've always considered limit to be the equivalent of a limit game 3x the size, and from what I've read, good players should be making 4-7 BB/100 (compared to 2 BB/100 for limit). Also, because you are making money on a few big hands in NL compared to a number of smaller pots in limit, the rake on your wins is even more noticeable. A $4 rake (just over 1/2 max from what you're saying) is 50% of your expected 2BB/100 (based on your online rate), so it's easy to see why you're not profitable at the clubs.

With no disrespect, if you are only making 2BB/100, you probably can't beat that sort of rake, and any "extras" (like the bad beat jackpot) just make it worse. This isn't a shot - I'm only making 3.5/100, so I would barely be above break-even there too. If you still want to play the clubs, try to find some with a lower rake or no jackpot, and just crunch the numbers to see whether you can realistically beat it. Better players can beat the rake, but for guys like us who are just a bit above average, try to play somewhere else . Good luck!

BoyBlue

i agree with the first replay. you may be giving off tells. i would recommend that you play a limit game rather its a real casino or a underground game. but if you make like u said about $8 in a hundred hands, this is only telling me that you may be a very very tight player which itself would be a tell if u got a monster hand and now all of a sudden you are betting which you werent doing before. i myself am not a tight player (unless i have to be). but i always like to mix it up or show a tell and use that tell everytime you have eighter good or bad cards but stick to one, so when you actually later have a good hand and you realoze that that player has picked up on the tell that you were showing him, use it to ur advantage. this could potentially make you gather bigger pots. it has been working for me. for example. for this one cash game i was in i would always put my stack of chips every time i had a monster hand or the nuts. i noticed half the players picked up on this tell. a couple of hours later i picked up the nuts and there was still 3 people in the pot. this time i never put my chips on the cards and overbet the pot whcih made them all think that i was bluffing and they pushed me all in which of course i called and that pot alone made me over $600.

i guess y point is like i said mix it up and keep mixing it up trust me it works.

HP_John

Even though 10% sounds high, I haven't found any good club that spreads 1/2 w/ a 5% rake. I play at a place where the max is $5, this is the best of any major club in Toronto.

The place I play also doesn't rake $1 each hand for a jackpot. The jackpot rake is a killer on small pots, plus no 1 can track it (ie the jackpot should be XXXX but the club claims it's XXX, pocketing the difference).

They are safe IMO. None I know of have been raided or robbed. The place I play has a security camera & they keep the doors locked.

For 1/2, it's hard to avoid a 10% rake so try to play where there is a low max to maximize your big wins, & where
there's no jackpot, so your small pots still make you money.

P.S. PM me if you want further info, I just don't wanna name the club because they might not wanna be named publicly (ie rake).

ReefAquarium

Thanks for all the replies!

$5 rake max and no jackpot sounds like where I want to play. I hate jackpots. I'm going to never play at a club with one.

Better still I think I'm going to start to go to Seneca (max $4 rake).


Yes I may be leaking tells. It's hard to know if you have tells or not. Anyone know of a way of detecting if you're giving off tells?

Thanks

BigChrisEl

ReefAquarium wrote:

Thanks for all the replies!

$5 rake max and no jackpot sounds like where I want to play. I hate jackpots. I'm going to never play at a club with one.

Better still I think I'm going to start to go to Seneca (max $4 rake).


Yes I may be leaking tells. It's hard to know if you have tells or not. Anyone know of a way of detecting if you're giving off tells?

Thanks

Try to remember if people are folding to you when you have big hands, if they are chances are you are giving off tells.

One I see most often is when people act quickly either checking or betting, also try not to look at your cards before it is your turn to act, and never look at the cards when they are being dealt for the flop.

ReefAquarium

BigChrisEl wrote:

ReefAquarium wrote:

Thanks for all the replies!

$5 rake max and no jackpot sounds like where I want to play. I hate jackpots. I'm going to never play at a club with one.

Better still I think I'm going to start to go to Seneca (max $4 rake).


Yes I may be leaking tells. It's hard to know if you have tells or not. Anyone know of a way of detecting if you're giving off tells?

Thanks

Try to remember if people are folding to you when you have big hands, if they are chances are you are giving off tells.

One I see most often is when people act quickly either checking or betting, also try not to look at your cards before it is your turn to act, and never look at the cards when they are being dealt for the flop.

Okay, I'm going to try taking 8 seconds every time I check or bet.

And never ever look at my cards before it's time to act.
And never look at the flop till I've seen peoples reaction to it.

Any more suggestions?

STR82ACE

Get caught bluffing once in awhile. It'll show others that you're not afraid to bluff, AND you will play some weak hands.

ReefAquarium

STR82ACE wrote:

Get caught bluffing once in awhile. It'll show others that you're not afraid to bluff, AND you will play some weak hands.

Getting caught bluffing seems to happen all by itself ...

xx23

Sry to bud in w/ a side note, but if anyone is looking for a $1/2 NL game in K/W with 5%, $6max rake lemme know =D

STR82ACE

ReefAquarium wrote:

STR82ACE wrote:

Get caught bluffing once in awhile. It'll show others that you're not afraid to bluff, AND you will play some weak hands.

Getting caught bluffing seems to happen all by itself ...

Then you're bluffing WAAAAAYYYY too often.