Playing middle pocket pairs after flop - Hand analysis

fatboy

Hey Dave et al

I have been going through my pokertracker db to look at some hands where I seem to lose the most $$$ and I think middle pairs are a big leak for me. I have read lots of posts here but wanted to get your feedback on this hand

POKERSTARS GAME #5543347540: TOURNAMENT #28018879, $20+$2 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2006/07/13 - 01:53:47 (ET)
Table '28018879 13' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: korn999 (4892 in chips)
Seat 2: Murry (2330 in chips)
Seat 3: cowboy1776 (7185 in chips)
Seat 5: mdinwa (9732 in chips)
Seat 6: Caulaincourt (8830 in chips)
Seat 7: cisco z (9625 in chips)
Seat 8: Rhiley18 (4705 in chips)
Seat 9: moneytree001 (4220 in chips)
Murry: posts small blind 100
cowboy1776: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to korn999 [8c 8h]
mdinwa: calls 200
Caulaincourt: folds
cisco z: folds
Rhiley18: folds
moneytree001: folds
korn999: raises 600 to 800
Murry: folds
cowboy1776: folds
mdinwa: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [Ts Tc Ad]
mdinwa: bets 600
korn999: raises 800 to 1400
mdinwa: calls 800
*** TURN *** [Ts Tc Ad] [5d]
mdinwa: checks
korn999: checks
*** RIVER *** [Ts Tc Ad 5d] [Qs]
mdinwa: checks
korn999: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mdinwa: shows [Ac 9c] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
korn999: mucks hand
mdinwa collected 4700 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4700 | Rake 0
Board [Ts Tc Ad 5d Qs]
Seat 1: korn999 (button) mucked [8c 8h]
Seat 2: Murry (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: cowboy1776 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: mdinwa showed [Ac 9c] and won (4700) with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 6: Caulaincourt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: cisco z folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Rhiley18 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: moneytree001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Did I  play this right? any thoughts on improving medium pair play

Thanks

DrTyore

<Standard disclaimer about reads and such>

ON that flop, I don't bet the 8's again. Had it been 10-10-7 or 10-10-Q even, I would have, but it's just too likely that someone flat calling PF has an ace. I obviously don't put them necessarily on a 10, since there's 2 out there, and an undercard on the board doesn't scare me. However, what would they simply call pre-flop with?

My mind (sans reads): AJ, A9, A10 (this would suck but as I said, less likely), pocket pair.

I think he would (or should) be raising with AK / AQ, and any pair above 10, but with the flat call, I have to assume it's "Ax"

Mark

Metro

I bet if its checked to me, but fold to the raise.

If I am going to re-reraise I will put one in that could atleast take someone off the pot if holding Ax, or represent the 10.

Your re-raise was simply to small to bluff at that pot.

You raised pre-flop which may give you the opportunity to represent a big Ace, but you need to know a couple things...

1. That the actual player can fold TP.
2. That with a pair on the board the player may not worry as much about kicker problems.
3. With a pot of 2400 you are unlikely to get the player off any Ace with a bet of 800.
4. If he calls the 800 you really have no more information - so WTF are you doing on the turn?

FINAL THOUGHTS: I don't mind making a move at this if I am the first into the pot - but it costs too much to try a steal once he has already raised.

Bigbearaaa

I don't like the calling of the preflop raise with A9 out of position. Most times your opponent will get himself in a lot of trouble doing that. His limp and then calling a raise from out of position had me thinking that he might be slow playing AA ( not a good play but some people do ) and that at the very least had a mid kickered ace. I'm definitely not an expert, just giving how I read what was there as I read through the hand.
He shouldn't be calling a raise in early Poseidon with a small pocket pair (2s,3,4s,5s) so he most likely has an A with a mid kicker or a KQ(another seriously overplayed hand).
I'd probably check and fold with an ace on the flop.
I definitely agree that your post flop raise was too small. It wouldn't get me off a hand and won't get most other players off one either. Although in this case I might think because of the small size of the raise that you had a pretty big pair. That said it would then appear from your opponents response that he's sure he has a bigger one.

ChrisWinsor

Just a little comment, don't over value midle pair when there is only one over card. Now that's not to say you're always behind, but alot of people bet really strong with their mid pairs when it's second pair, yet play second pair really passively... That said, that ace on the flop is not the card you wanna see. Fold it and wait for a better flop with your mid pair.

specialK

I think that raising this pot preflop with 88 and 1 limper infront is a mistake. IMO you should limp or fold, basically you are trying to flop a set or some kind of OESD with 88. Also I generally would consider the limper to have 2 overcards to my pair at this point. So when the flop comes down A1010 there's a pretty good chance that he has hit this. Then he bets into you, this could be a crazy steal attempt but it's most likely the guy enticing you to raise... gotta fold to the bet. Even so you raised, and then check behind on the turn, UGLY, at this point you are just giving up on the hand with the same information that you just re-raised this guy with.

Hobbes

If I'm going to play middle pairs preflop I play them agressively. Your raise was a bit weak.
Since there was already a $500 in you aren't really going to chase out too many suited aces (esp given mdinwa's stack).

With an Ace on the flop (and a paired board), I'd probably have dumped the hand. Too much chance of your opponent having an Ace.

ElElliott

Hobbes wrote: »

If I'm going to play middle pairs preflop I play them agressively.

Why would you play a mid-pair aggressively? I prefer to see a cheap flop and if I don't connect with a set or OESD (as someone else already said), than it's way easier to get away from.

You raise aggressively and then get called - flop is as above (pair +A...or even just 3 over cards to your mid-pair) and then what? You've invested a lot with a weak hand.

Hobbes

Like I said El IF I am going to play them.

Late position is one that I might consider. I would probably limp MP and if it's an agressive table, I amy even dump them in EP. Not knowing the table though, it's hard to tell if I really would or not.

ElElliott

I agree - so much of playing hands like these (or, I guess any hands, really) depends on the table, reads, etc.