Do you even think about folding?

Redington

I know Im against at least one flush draw, hopefully two
But I am also probably against a set.

A no brainer against one player but against multiple players?


PokerStars Game  Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) -
Table '16496582 5' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Roswel (1134 in chips)
Seat 4: major58 (2254 in chips)
Seat 5: C4VETTE (1075 in chips)
Seat 6: Rembrandt X (1607 in chips)
Seat 7: soon-a-fool (4315 in chips)
Seat 8: BigBooUK (1740 in chips)
Seat 9: wawelcada (1375 in chips)
Roswel: posts small blind 15
major58: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roswel
C4VETTE: folds
Rembrandt X: calls 30
soon-a-fool: calls 30
BigBooUK: folds
wawelcada: folds
Roswel: calls 15
major58: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jc 9c Qh]
Roswel: bets 120
major58: folds
Rembrandt X: raises 120 to 240
soon-a-fool: raises 120 to 360
Roswel: raises 744 to 1104 and is all-in
Rembrandt X: raises 473 to 1577 and is all-in
soon-a-fool: calls 1217
*** TURN *** [Jc 9c Qh] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 9c Qh Ac] [6h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Rembrandt X: shows [Qs Js] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
soon-a-fool: shows [Tc 6c] (a flush, Ace high)
soon-a-fool collected 946 from side pot
Roswel: shows (a straight, Ten to Ace)
soon-a-fool collected 3432 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4378 Main pot 3432. Side pot 946. | Rake 0
Board [Jc 9c Qh Ac 6h]
Seat 1: Roswel (small blind) showed and lost with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 4: major58 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: C4VETTE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Rembrandt X showed [Qs Js] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 7: soon-a-fool showed [Tc 6c] and won (4378) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: BigBooUK folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: wawelcada (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

DrTyore

Meh...

You had the nuts, got all your money in.. I play this the same way.

Though that may not be of much comfort.

Mark

BBC Z

The only way you can't push the flop is if you can fold on the turn when the club draw makes it there and you have a very specific read that tells you one of them has it.

If you don't, then get those chips in and enjoy your 66% equity.

SirWatts

Nah of course not. I guess you're only around 50/50 to win but getting 2:1 that's sweet. Keep making good decisions and ride out this cold streak.

Redington

thanks guys,

How do you start figuring odds against you in with multiple players?

Is it as simple as flush = 9
set to full = 7
common cards = 1 (but I dont see someone slow playing JJ or QQ)

so 16 - 1 = 15 outs against me? so am I not WAY behind in the hand?

pkrfce9

Well, that son-of-a-fool is appropriately named, although I think he almost had proper odds to call the all-ins in the end. He sure likes them crappy suited cards! His min re-raise gives pause for thought.

I don't think you can fold here given the risk vs reward scenario. I'm not even sure you can call this a bad beat. Bad play on his part, maybe but he got lucky. I note his stack was pretty large so I'm guessing he likes to gamble on longshots? And yours was pretty small, so you either had a bad beat or were playing loose?

It may have worked out better for you to go with a half-pot bet on the flop and smooth call the re-raises. That would leave you with enough chips to pressure the draws on the turn, assuming it doesn't hit. Flush draws are easier to chase out on the turn. (Of course that isn't relevant here and I don't think he would fold even if the turn hadn't hit him. Given the turn, I think I'd check it to see the action behind. I'm sure it would have been fast and furious. Still hard to lay down the nut straight...)

ScoobyD

so 16 - 1 = 15 outs against me? so am I not WAY behind in the hand?

No. Why?

Nah of course not.  I guess you're only around 50/50 to win but getting 2:1 that's sweet.

'Nuff said.

the_main

Do you even think about folding?

This early, never. Change the context (late satteliite situation, for example) and then maybe.

magithighs

Call me crazy, tighty-whity, but I think it's an easy fold..............................pre-flop.  I hate KTo.  But, then again, I know I'll get some heat for that comment.  But, that's my recommendation after years  of taking  it prizon style with KTo -- long term losing hand.  Food for thought (hint correlate to another post).  It's a very vulnerable hand and I found I was getting my chips in too many times with the worst of it. 

Post-flop, absolutely no way you can fold this -- not ever.

Cheers
Magi

the_main

magithighs wrote:

Call me crazy, tighty-whity, but I think it's an easy fold..............................pre-flop.  I hate KTo.  But, then again, I know I'll get some heat for that comment.  But, that's my recommendation after years  of taking  it prizon style with KTo -- long term losing hand.  Food for thought (hint correlate to another post).  It's a very vulnerable hand and I found I was getting my chips in too many times with the worst of it. 

Post-flop, absolutely no way you can fold this -- not ever.

Cheers
Magi

No way you lay down K10 in the SB with 2 limpers, you tighty-whitey.

ScoobyD

On the subject of KTo, I totally hear you Magi. I detest the hand. But given that it's half price in the SB, I complete here every time. The trick is to be cautious with top pair hands, as you're really looking to flop a monster. And obviously the nut straight qualifies as a monster...

AcidJoe

Magi, I agree with you on the hand especially calling it cold and calling a raise. With 2 limpers in and me in the small blind I'll complete with far worse hands than K 10 off. Once you flop the nut straight I think the situation is obvious. I go broke here. but lately I've been going broke on every hand it seems.

magithighs

Sorry bout that -- I hate reading those hand histories -- can't get it straight. PLEASE SLOTH, can't we do something with bisonbison, to get them in the same format 2+2 enjoys. Yes, 1/2 bet -- complete. And, gotta go broke with this.

Redington

On the button, folded to me I would go for a raise (steal) but in the SB I cant see me folding, ever Period.

Although if I flop top pair or two I am worrried about kicker and straight completing...
I dont lose much in those situations

But how do you figure out odds against you with two or more players?

16 outs against me with turn and river to go am I not a huge dog?

pkrfce9

Redington wrote:

But how do you figure out odds against you with two or more players?

16 outs against me with turn and river to go am I not a huge dog?

Pokerstove, my friend:

Board: Jc 9c Qh
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 47.8221 % 44.63% 03.19% { KhTd }
Hand 2: 18.1986 % 18.05% 00.15% { QsJs }
Hand 3: 33.9793 % 30.79% 03.19% { Tc6c }

You are almost 50% to win and you've only put in about a third of the money. Seems like a good deal to me!

magithighs

I will fold KTo in the SB many times.  It's not a winner for me (possibly lack of skill!!), but I aggree on the odds to complete.  However, two case in points, at the westside TOC. One, I hit top pair and run into a set and the other where we're three handed. I have 84 in the SB.  I choose not to complete, even though with the antes I'm getting incredible oods.  Flop comes Q84.  I'm rethinking this.  Turn is a J and  I believe the river is a 3.  We're all in at the river, except for me.  BB has Q3, and button has T9.  The blinds are the worst spot, IMO.

Back to your question.  You can go to pokerstrove for a more detailed calcuation.  I use Poki Poker Academy.  

Preflop

QJs 39% to win
KTo 37% to win
T6s 21.5% to win

So, you're easily getting the  correct odds to call.  But, let's say T6 has A6 instead, KTo goes down to 26% -- still getting odds, but you're out of position.  

Flop

QJs 18% to win
KTo 47% to win
T6s 30.8% to win

Turn

QJs 9% to win
KTo 0% to win
T6s 90% to win

Cheers
Magi

SirWatts

Alternatively if you don't own the software,

www.twodimes.net

The worst case situation you were worried about: 

cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
Js Jh  320  35.44   579  64.12    4  0.44  0.356
Td Kh  300  33.22   551  61.02   52  5.76  0.360
Tc 6c  231  25.58   620  68.66   52  5.76  0.284

Even in the worst case you easily have the odds.

And yes you can always do a rough calculation counting their combined odds, they would need a combined 21 outs twice for you to be even a 2:1 dog though.

Dave Scharf

Without peeking...

PokerStars Game Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) -
Table '16496582 5' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Roswel (1134 in chips)
Seat 4: major58 (2254 in chips)
Seat 5: C4VETTE (1075 in chips)
Seat 6: Rembrandt X (1607 in chips)
Seat 7: soon-a-fool (4315 in chips)
Seat 8: BigBooUK (1740 in chips)
Seat 9: wawelcada (1375 in chips)
Roswel: posts small blind 15
major58: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Roswel
C4VETTE: folds
Rembrandt X: calls 30
soon-a-fool: calls 30
BigBooUK: folds
wawelcada: folds
Roswel: calls 15
major58: checks

I do the same thing.

*** FLOP *** [Jc 9c Qh]
Roswel: bets 120

I like this bet. A lot of players in no-limit will slow play. But, the only way you are going to win a big pot is if your opponent(s) has something. If he does he will call or raise -- building the pot until you get him pot committed.

major58: folds
Rembrandt X: raises 120 to 240
soon-a-fool: raises 120 to 360
Roswel: raises 744 to 1104 and is all-in
Rembrandt X: raises 473 to 1577 and is all-in
soon-a-fool: calls 1217

Getting it all in with the nuts. Can't argue with that. If you give one a set and the other a flush draw then your pot equity is still OK. You are a modest favourite. I note also that you are getting slightly behind the curve in chips and although you are far from panic mode it's hard to pass situations with like this.

However, if you KNOW that you have opponents that will NOT lay down a flush draw then you are better off calling here and moving in on the turn with a non-flush card calls. He will call and your odds will be much better of surviving. If you call and a club comes off on the turn will you be able to fold? If the answer is "yes, I am that sure that one had a flush draw" then calling the flop and moving in on the turn is a better play.

I judge how well I am playing by how well I am folding.

*** TURN *** [Jc 9c Qh] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 9c Qh Ac] [6h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Rembrandt X: shows [Qs Js] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
soon-a-fool: shows [Tc 6c] (a flush, Ace high)
soon-a-fool collected 946 from side pot
Roswel: shows (a straight, Ten to Ace)
soon-a-fool collected 3432 from main pot

stpboy

Dave Scharf wrote: »

I judge how well I am playing by how well I am folding.

This is by far the most important aspect for me in determining how well I am playing. I'll be sitting there in early position with a hand like QJs, KJs, A10 etc. and of course wanting to play but knowing that my limps won't hold up or that I'll just be getting myself in trouble. That being said, I don't always play well.

stp

Big E

KT, hate it, abso-fucking-lutely hate it....

last night very similar hand to yours Tyson...I flop the nut straight (got to check the BB), get 'er all in and trip 9's calls me only to river the case 9...shortly after I pick up AA and get 'er all in on a K high rainbow flop and the donkey flips over KTo only to river a T.

I'm soooo folding KT when I hit hard and soooo calling all-in when I'm behind.

g2

Big E wrote: »

I'm soooo folding KT when I hit hard and soooo calling all-in when I'm behind.

Finally! Someone else figures out how to properly play the game. I thought I was the only one who knew.

/g2