RULE CLARIFICATION -- Exposed Cards
Hello Dave;
Was wondering if I could pick your brain re: a rule clarification that happened last night at one of our low stakes no limit game. Long story short, river card comes and two people remain. Player A goes all in for the rest of his stack. Player B thinks about it for awhile, and shows Player A his 2 cards (in which he has 2 pair) in the air. Does not throw into the muck or announce fold. Cards are in his hand, exposed but never thrown on table or into muck.
Player A takes this as a fold. Player B states he didn't fold and Player A takes his cards back. Player B thinks about it for a minute and then calls. Player A mucks his cards and the pot is given to Player B.
My question is this. What is the "true" rule in exposing your 2 cards? Also, would it be ruled a fold at a casino or in your friendly games of no limit?
Just curious.
Any information is much appreciated... If anyone else could answer, that would be great as well.
Folded
PS: Here's what happened at our game. Player B was awarded the pot and Player A busted out. Discussions took place for about the next 20 min on the true ruling while continuing the game. Eventually, it was determined Player B should've been deemed to fold. Then, Player B gave Player A his $20 back at the end of the game.... (Geez I'm a nice guy..... lol)..
Was wondering if I could pick your brain re: a rule clarification that happened last night at one of our low stakes no limit game. Long story short, river card comes and two people remain. Player A goes all in for the rest of his stack. Player B thinks about it for awhile, and shows Player A his 2 cards (in which he has 2 pair) in the air. Does not throw into the muck or announce fold. Cards are in his hand, exposed but never thrown on table or into muck.
Player A takes this as a fold. Player B states he didn't fold and Player A takes his cards back. Player B thinks about it for a minute and then calls. Player A mucks his cards and the pot is given to Player B.
My question is this. What is the "true" rule in exposing your 2 cards? Also, would it be ruled a fold at a casino or in your friendly games of no limit?
Just curious.
Any information is much appreciated... If anyone else could answer, that would be great as well.
Folded
PS: Here's what happened at our game. Player B was awarded the pot and Player A busted out. Discussions took place for about the next 20 min on the true ruling while continuing the game. Eventually, it was determined Player B should've been deemed to fold. Then, Player B gave Player A his $20 back at the end of the game.... (Geez I'm a nice guy..... lol)..
Comments
Your cards are live until they hit the muck or you verbally state a fold
Intentionally showing cards
You are not allowed to show any of your cards during poker tournament play.
Roberts Rules of Poker. Section 15 - Tournaments
21. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.
For a first-time offence, giving an offending player a verbal warning is probably the most appropriate course of action. However, if this is a recurring problem, or very blatant, a time penalty (10 minutes?) might be appropriate. A player must post blinds but is not allowed to play a hand during a time penalty.
If a player does intentionally show any card to any player ...
Roberts Rules of Poker. Section 3 - The Showdown
6. If you show cards to an active player during a deal, any player at the table has the right to see those exposed cards. Cards shown during or after a deal to a player not in the pot should be shown to all players when the deal is finished.
This is known as the "show one, show all" rule.
i inquired with some people I know that have played in Vegas and AC and Niagara and it appears it has happened a few times in their experiences. The ruling was that the hand is live and no one was ever penalized. Actually it has happened that one of the guys actually did the same thing Brent did and was deemed folding himself even when they had a winner. Oh well a learning experience for all.
I think the rule varies from cardroom to cardroom. If you're playing in a home game, and the rule on this isn't specified up front, it's probably best to defer to an impartial website's ruling, like home poker dot com or whichever one you referenced. This way, nobody's feelings get hurt when the organizer of the game is forced to come up with a ruling after the incident has already occurred.
I see this happen all the time. I see people exposing one (or both) of their cards in casino cash games while the hand is still in play, and there is no penalty, nor is the hand considered dead. I've seen a person expose their cards while contemplating a call in a fairly 'major' organized 'private' tournament. No penalty, nor was the hand declared dead.
This has been brought up before though, and the consensus was that it may or may not be against the rules, but it is definitely angle-shooting. Whether angle-shooting is a good thing or a bad thing is up to the individual to decide. ScottyZ made a decent suggestion though, involving some counter-angle-shooting. If you're playing against someone and you've made a bet and they show you their cards while they're considering a call, hoping to pick up some sort of a tell from you, just say 'nice fold' and start to rake in the chips. Whether or not it will work is in question, but it will certainly prove a point.Â
I believe this actually made TV during an EPT event (European Poker Tour) and may have involved a Canadian... someone correct me if I'm wrong!
Also, if I was a long-term winning player in the cash game described in the OP, this kind of showing of cards would most certainly affect me even if I had no live hand at the time. Arguments resulting from sort of angle shooting will slow down the game, and my hourly win rate would go down.
(In a tournament, the premature showing (or discussion) of cards clearly affects all players in the tournament, and should never be allowed.)
Showing a down card (or cards) when last to act is often used by experienced players as a non-verbal shortcut for folding, similar to placing chips in front of you being a non-verbal signal that you are betting. Both of these have their grey areas of course. (Did you put the chips out in front of you to count them, or to bet? Did they move one inch or 10 inches forwards? Did you accidentally knock over your stack and spill a bunch of chips towards the centre of the table?)
The best way to handle these situations is before they happen. Have a clear rule set out ahead of time at your game that all players are aware of (or can easily make themselves aware of). If you are new to a game, ask the organizer about these kinds of things before you begin, or early on in the session. Better yet, ask how a dispute will be handled if it does come up--- that is, is there a printed sheet of house rules? A "standard" rules set on the web that will be used? A person (possibly the host/organizer) who will make rulings decisions on their own?
IMO, if there was no pre-determined rule one way or another, this should have been ruled a fold by Player B.
ScottyZ
i agree but i dont think there's anything wrong with that, I would put in on par to asking questions, trash talking, anything else that might be used to gain a reaction from an opponent.
In the situations I describe, all the betting IS done, only calling is left to be done. This may be considered semantics, but I really think this is ALL the difference. I still dont think there is anything wrong with this in a CASH game, as I said, tournaments are a different beast and all players are affected by every action in some way. Cash games allow different things (chopping pots, etc) than tournaments and I see no reason why this shouldn't be one of them.
Well some of my friends are "zucchinis" and don't read so good since it happened again last game. The player said it was an accident and we all yelled at him. He then folded.
I get a little frustrated when people that should no better, don't.
*Zucchini is not in this spell check*
Sorry, I should have been more specific. By 'the betting is done' I meant that there is no further action left in the hand, except for showdown. That includes any calls that may or may not have been made.
"All of the major tournaments in the United States share the following rule: You may not show your opponent your hand until the action is complete, or you will receive a penalty (usually 10 minutes on the sidelines while your chips are ante'd off)."
He was decribing a situation at the National Heads-up Championship where the above rule was not in place and how it allowed him to have this extra tool in his play that he was not accustomed to.
In "formal" games I do not think that it should be allowed. Intentionally shown hands should be folded.
It is, as many have stated, no settled. Without specifically knowing the rule, though, I wouldn't do it.
On thing I like to do is announce what I think my opponent has. It can have the same effect.
Interesting that someone is looking at this thread today. Man I lost a lot of chips because of this rule. I wish that there could be a unified ruling world wide, for tournaments. Stupid Ace 7 offsuit call Larry
Prophet 22
Actually Jeff, I am over it. It took awhile. By the time we were down to 5 or 6 players I was pretty much over it. While I was steaming about it, and the ruling had been made, I should have turned my cards over and then see if he called. Lesson learned, don't assume. Every tournament I have been to in Toronto it is a muck. West Side it is a muck or at least should be every time. I uesally announce this at the start of every tournament. I will now try to rememeber to ask every tournament I play in.
Brent
I would be careful about the way you interpretted the ruling that situation. The action was over for you because you went all-in, but the action was not over for Dr. Larry because he had not decided if he should call or fold. I'm not saying what the correct ruling is, but a tournament director may say that Dr. Larry can show his hand but you can't in that situtation.
Having said all that, I agree that it should be consistently enforced, and I like the rule that you can not intentionally show a card in tournament play.
I understand that, but by allowing one player to show cards to gain an eit gives that person an edge. I played with Larry in Milton on the weekend and everyone was doing. I asked the question because I simply forgot at the tournament, how he should have been allowed to show to gain information (offense) and I can't show to power the information (defense) is not in the best spirit of the game. I really wish this rule was definitive once and for all.
Just my thoughts
Prophet 22
ALL ACES is right...regarding tournament play...The monthly events at the GBH rules that any exposed hand is a dead hand. I think this rule is also enforced at WPT events but may differ from cardroom to cardroom.
The WPT does not have any rules. They simply want to film a tournament to produce a TV show. The tournament itself (and therefore the rules of each tournament) are totally up to the casino/cardroom hosting the event.
If a player does it again, he/she will mostly be:
1. asked to leave the room (if it happens during a ring game).
OR
2. penilazied for 1 orbit of play (if it happens in a tournament). If it is tournament play, the warning is considered given at the start of the tournment and a penalty may be given on the 1st infraction.
Prematurely exposing ones card tends to NOT be a violation of a rule, rather a violation of ettiquette.
/g2
This was a delibrate action on the players part. Now that he shows the Ace then I should be allowed to show my card or cards. In this case it was angle shooting pure and simple.
Brent
He wasn't the only one to use that at the NHU Poker Championship. Phil Gordon tryed it against Jamie Gold, from what I remember he showed a 7, probably to make Gold think he had 3rd best pair, or 2 pair... (when he really had hit a set)... I don't think it worked though.
Anyone see this, and have a better recolleciton of how he used it?
As far as whether or not it should be in the rules? I think unless it is clearly outlined at the beginning of the tournament that it will be ALLOWED, it should never be used. But in the cases where it is allowed, go ahead and use it whenever you think it will give you an advantage. Because if it is allowed, and you don't use it, you are giving up on one tool, that other people can use against you.... however it isn't exactly easy to use correctly. Used incorrectly, you are giving way too much information away.
I guess this is very similar to telling a player what you are holding, is there an official rule against that?