With 6k and blunds 1200/2400. you have 0 fold equity unless they are dumb or not paying attention. with the ante up concept it is different. Antes 400. So people only have 400 committed each therefore you have fold equity for 6k. see the difference now?
That's what I thought too at first and while that may very well be true it's not the whole truth. If we pretend we only have to worry about the BB in both cases we shove 6k in the ante up game, leaving the BB having to call 6k to win 16k which he needs maybe 35% equity to do. If we do the same thing in a normal game the BB needs to call 3,6k to win like 15,4k which he only needs like 24% to do so so far so good.
In an ideal ante up game though (BB <<<<< ante) everyone should be at least limping every hand so any shove you make into a limped pot needs to get through 8 other players, x of which you may or may not be able to cut out chunks of their ranges cause they just limped, but everyone left to act after you needs only 35% equity vs your range to make that call. Granted then they'd have to worry about further action but 6k is a pretty small investment for an average sized stack at this point so the adjustment won't be more than 1-2% equity per position
In a normal game the BB would need 24% to call you, the SB would need 4,8 to win 16.65 or 29% equity (adjust that for the possibility for further action putting it at maybe 30-31% equity). any other player that's not the blinds need to call 6k to win 17,85k which is 33% which we then need to adjust for further action.
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Summing up the ante up scenario in an unraised pot we're always shoving into 8 guys who are getting 35% equity to call adjusted for their relative positions where you can say something about the first x limpers. In a normal game you're shoving into 8-x players, x of whom you know will not call and 2 who you know will be very likely to call
I'm making this post mostly for my own sake to try to learn something about the math of poker so this might all be obvious to someone more knowledgable than me already. The next step would be to sum all positions up and create a function of x yielding the probability we're getting at least one caller in each game but that feels a bit too advanced (since just cause someone needs 35% equity to call doesn't mean they're calling with 35% of their hands)
Basically I did a bunch of analysis and I can't conclude anything from it other than that we're very likely to get called when shoving 1,5M in both games ^^'. When we're shoving UTG in both games we prefer to be in an ante up situation in terms of FE and when we're shoving the SB we also marginally prefer being in the ante up game in terms out FE. Too bad I couldn't come up with anything more interesting, I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares at all
ill be honest only read the first sentence because I figured if your numbers are wrong there the rest might be off as well, if its based on your comment 6k to win 16k. I dont know where you got that. 400 ante from everyone.....9 players. 400 x 9= 3700. add in the 10 from the blinds......3700 +10 = 3710....my push for 6k.....3710 + 6000= 9700. therefore 6k to win 9700. not even 2-1. therefore he has to fold hand like 910, j10, q9. etc basically hands he would have to snap if blinds were 1200/2400 and I pushed for 6k. In this im assuming Im pushing for like MP not sb or button. So even though we are losing the same amount each round, about 4k. It is all different, because when you shove people are not getting the same price at allllllll to call. Again being at 6k wasnt awesome lol I didnt love it haha but as i said desperate times called for desperate measures and since I looked at it this way, I didnt think it was all that bad.
ill be honest only read the first sentence because I figured if your numbers are wrong there the rest might be off as well, if its based on your comment 6k to win 16k. I dont know where you got that. 400 ante from everyone.....9 players. 400 x 9= 3700. add in the 10 from the blinds......3700 +10 = 3710....my push for 6k.....3710 + 6000= 9700. therefore 6k to win 9700. not even 2-1. therefore he has to fold hand like 910, j10, q9. etc basically hands he would have to snap if blinds were 1200/2400 and I pushed for 6k. In this im assuming Im pushing for like MP not sb or button. So even though we are losing the same amount each round, about 4k. It is all different, because when you shove people are not getting the same price at allllllll to call. Again being at 6k wasnt awesome lol I didnt love it haha but as i said desperate times called for desperate measures and since I looked at it this way, I didnt think it was all that bad.
16k was from the fact that he's also calling 6k to get his own 6k back on top of the 6k from the shove and the close to 4 form antes. What i concluded in that last post was basically that although it looks very different the number of potential callers who are getting a great prize on your small shove makes the math closer than you might think (since you're ALWAYS shoving into 8 people who are getting 2-1)
I'm still not saying what you did was bad, I'm just analysing the format :P
its not 2-1 though lol you cant include there call haha. there is 9500 in the pot or whatever its your turn to act. you have to call 6k to win 9500. not 6k to 15500. Even though 8 people are getting 1.5-1 on a call its a lot different then one person getting 3-1 on a call. The ranges are completely different there.
its not 2-1 though lol you cant include there call haha
Doesn't make sense otherwise, if there's 1 chip in the pot and your opponent shoves 6k you can call with 50% equity. The math of that is that we're calling 6k to win 12k and thus we need 6/12= 50%. not 6k to win 6k for 6/6=100%
you win this round. stop distracting me from playing :P
but thats not what the original comments are about. one is them calling 3600 to win 9500 where they have 2400 already invested. other is 6k to win the same amount with only 400 invested. thats different equities meaning different ranges which was my point
you win this round. stop distracting me from playing :P
but thats not what the original comments are about. one is them calling 3600 to win 9500 where they have 2400 already invested. other is 6k to win the same amount with only 400 invested. thats different equities meaning different ranges which was my point
The investment is irrelevant. This super small shove may be a special case since you have 0 FE in a normal structure and small FE in this one but my from the way my math was going it looks as though the FE's might very well converge as the shove gets just a little bit deeper
Seriously? I'm saying that I belive that as soon as your stack is deep enough to warrant small amounts of FE in a normal game the combined FE from an ante up game with the same stakes will be close to the same cause you'll give A LOT of people a good prize rather than give a few people a really good price
in a game that is new, and unmastered. where ranges have yet to be really defined?
obv more people have a better price. but it will not come close to equal the price of the bb gets in a normal game.
I dont even know why you continue this discussion everyone in the world knows that having a 6k stack there wasnt good, ive said that. But its not as horrible as you made it out to be. I wanted a cash in a wcoop so break the non cash streak. went onto cash in the following 2 for the bap and hope to keep that rolling. was it worth it YES.
Comments
That's what I thought too at first and while that may very well be true it's not the whole truth. If we pretend we only have to worry about the BB in both cases we shove 6k in the ante up game, leaving the BB having to call 6k to win 16k which he needs maybe 35% equity to do. If we do the same thing in a normal game the BB needs to call 3,6k to win like 15,4k which he only needs like 24% to do so so far so good.
In an ideal ante up game though (BB <<<<< ante) everyone should be at least limping every hand so any shove you make into a limped pot needs to get through 8 other players, x of which you may or may not be able to cut out chunks of their ranges cause they just limped, but everyone left to act after you needs only 35% equity vs your range to make that call. Granted then they'd have to worry about further action but 6k is a pretty small investment for an average sized stack at this point so the adjustment won't be more than 1-2% equity per position
In a normal game the BB would need 24% to call you, the SB would need 4,8 to win 16.65 or 29% equity (adjust that for the possibility for further action putting it at maybe 30-31% equity). any other player that's not the blinds need to call 6k to win 17,85k which is 33% which we then need to adjust for further action.
----
Summing up the ante up scenario in an unraised pot we're always shoving into 8 guys who are getting 35% equity to call adjusted for their relative positions where you can say something about the first x limpers. In a normal game you're shoving into 8-x players, x of whom you know will not call and 2 who you know will be very likely to call
I'm making this post mostly for my own sake to try to learn something about the math of poker so this might all be obvious to someone more knowledgable than me already. The next step would be to sum all positions up and create a function of x yielding the probability we're getting at least one caller in each game but that feels a bit too advanced (since just cause someone needs 35% equity to call doesn't mean they're calling with 35% of their hands)
Basically I did a bunch of analysis and I can't conclude anything from it other than that we're very likely to get called when shoving 1,5M in both games ^^'. When we're shoving UTG in both games we prefer to be in an ante up situation in terms of FE and when we're shoving the SB we also marginally prefer being in the ante up game in terms out FE. Too bad I couldn't come up with anything more interesting, I'll just leave this here for anyone who cares at all
16k was from the fact that he's also calling 6k to get his own 6k back on top of the 6k from the shove and the close to 4 form antes. What i concluded in that last post was basically that although it looks very different the number of potential callers who are getting a great prize on your small shove makes the math closer than you might think (since you're ALWAYS shoving into 8 people who are getting 2-1)
I'm still not saying what you did was bad, I'm just analysing the format :P
sure I can if I use probabilities rather than odds
Doesn't make sense otherwise, if there's 1 chip in the pot and your opponent shoves 6k you can call with 50% equity. The math of that is that we're calling 6k to win 12k and thus we need 6/12= 50%. not 6k to win 6k for 6/6=100%
but thats not what the original comments are about. one is them calling 3600 to win 9500 where they have 2400 already invested. other is 6k to win the same amount with only 400 invested. thats different equities meaning different ranges which was my point
The investment is irrelevant. This super small shove may be a special case since you have 0 FE in a normal structure and small FE in this one but my from the way my math was going it looks as though the FE's might very well converge as the shove gets just a little bit deeper
obv more people have a better price. but it will not come close to equal the price of the bb gets in a normal game.
I dont even know why you continue this discussion everyone in the world knows that having a 6k stack there wasnt good, ive said that. But its not as horrible as you made it out to be. I wanted a cash in a wcoop so break the non cash streak. went onto cash in the following 2 for the bap and hope to keep that rolling. was it worth it YES.