Ship this mofugga- just a heads up, Karim and Nav (both darker fellows) both up today. Nav is good, Karim is reallllllly good. Ami "UhhMee" is also said to be playing according to another friend, but didn't use his first name on results. Checking into it.
Ya got the scoop. Quite the back story, the other side of poker....
Friends were owed not the other way around. Wrong city to be collecting though. Needless to say they have left town. Glad no one was hurt or rolled and not sorry I missed it.
Bricked the series folks. Tx for the investments, but we'll have to bounce back next time.
It appears Edmonton is not the city of brotherly love, and I never felt super comfortable during any of the events, not to mention that I ran pretty absurdly terrible for 4 days straight.
Its 10pm and still light out.
The mosquitos are worse than Winnipeg.
The only restaurants are Subway. Literally. Theres Subway on every corner.
Looking forward to your thoughts in TR, you are still one of the best sir.
The $300's I found very fast and loose, but 500 and 1000 seem to Be one of the best structures in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Was very surprised 500 played to completion.
Glad you liked the cash game, that 500 max buy is gold for good players, tables are usually very deep at 1/2
Looking forward to your thoughts in TR, you are still one of the best sir.
The $300's I found very fast and loose, but 500 and 1000 seem to Be one of the best structures in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Was very surprised 500 played to completion.
Glad you liked the cash game, that 500 max buy is gold for good players, tables are usually very deep at 1/2
Curious as to why you weren't 100% comfortable?
The structures for the 500/1K were good, not great. If I could change one thing I would have had the levels at 45 minutes throughout. They were at 30 min for about 8 levels, then go to 45. I would take the 1k structure from COPC last year and compare it to the 1k here and you'll see a noticable difference.
People should really learn the mantra that more chips do not make a better structure.
The entire 550 lasted about 13 hours.
To put that into perspective, it was about 6-7 hours shorter than a standard Venetian deepstack. As a signature event, I would expect a similar structure to the venetians.
The lack of antes in the tournaments also hurt my style of play. Which is why I wasnt really comfortable in what was going on.
All in all, they were ran well by the team and staff there.
nah, don't like the starting stack and structure for the $330......the monthly $300 is same structure, but 20K in chips....much better value
Quoted from another post, but probably better to post this here:
I understand what you're referring to, but better value isn't the correct term. You want deeper play, but that doesn't necessarily make it better value. Especially the live tournaments here. The play is rather poor at all stack depths, that it doesn't really make it better/worse value...but it may increase variance.
In terms of the actual structure, I would agree that more people would like to have more play. I think live players don't understand structures and the tournaments at the casinos here fail to optimize the structures for a one day tourney. They see an increase starting stack to make a deeper tournament. This really isn't true.
Increasing the starting stacks, makes for more meaningless play at the beginning...but near the end of the day...the average bbs of players remaning doesn't really differ.
As an example: I played the $560. With about 20 players left, we were playing 3k/6k. About 180 registered w/ 12k starting stack. With 20 people left, the average stack size is 18 bbs.
At the next blind level of 4k/8k? If no one busts, the avg stack size would be 13.5 bbs.
The problems is that whenever you go deep in a tournament, all the previously skipped levels compound...and you get to the point where the average stack is the shallowest at the most significantly critical point of a tournament...the end.
The easiest way to really fix it, is set up the structure correctly from the beginning.
If I ran the tournament, I would start by eliminating the 25/50 level. Begin with more meaningful poker at the 50/100 level. Instead of jumping from 30 minute levels to 45 minute levels. I would rather see them keep 30 minute levels, but add more levels. Once you get up to a newly created 2.5k/5k level..then increase the level to 40 minutes. One last obvious tweak is to increase the antes to ~1/3 to 1/4th the SB...and introduce them earlier. This prevents the short stacks from folding and waiting for hands.
From my limited live experience here...your average player is too tight anyways, and it compensates for the lack of antes...and should have little impact on your game.
I also want to say that most of the dealers were pretty good. One dealer, I think her name is Amanda is pretty incredible. She's probably deals 20% more hands than some of the other dealers.
The one thing dealers really shouldn't do is count down stacks of players bets and all ins, until requested. Not only because it slows down the game, but it may alter people's action. Eg. I stick a pile of chips in there. If a player doesn't get a count...they may think it's a lot more than what it is..and may fold had the dealer not count it.
The one thing dealers really shouldn't do is count down stacks of players bets and all ins, until requested. Not only because it slows down the game, but it may alter people's action. Eg. I stick a pile of chips in there. If a player doesn't get a count...they may think it's a lot more than what it is..and may fold had the dealer not count it.
Pretty sure we played at the same table.
Did you tell one of the dealers specifically not to do this?
I understand what you're referring to, but better value isn't the correct term. You want deeper play, but that doesn't necessarily make it better value. Especially the live tournaments here..
Agree with everything else, but how is 20k not greater value than 10k in an equal structure?
Obv we'd prefer better structure over more chips.....but when YH offers an apple (bigger starting stack) instead of a yam (smaller starting stack).......I'm going to take the apple, even though I'd rather have a beer (better structure).
Wetts - Nope, I didn't say that...another player said it at the table. I agree with what he said...I thought that was Karim? I have no idea though...as I barely play live. I was on table one for the majority of the night.
T8 - Starting chips don't define how great a value a tournament is. Neither does structure. The value comes from the strength of the field. You make money in this game because you make less mistakes than your opponents. In the live tourneys in Edmonton, the field plays so poorly at shallow depth stacks...that your value doesn't really differ if the avg stack is 15 bbs vs 20 bbs. A lot of the players make way too many fundamental errors that the value is exploiting their errors. From what I saw, they make probably even bigger errors with less than 12 bbs than they do with 20 bbs...that the value won't differ all that much. Also if you get double the starting stack in one....the tournament will on avg take longer...which will affect your hourly. You may end up winning the same amount of money...but it costs you two more hours.
Wetts - Nope, I didn't say that...another player said it at the table. I agree with what he said...I thought that was Karim? I have no idea though...as I barely play live. I was on table one for the majority of the night.
Sort of. Got berated for sucking out w/ A10o vs JJ to a 8 bb shove. The guy actually thought A10o only had 6% equity. Seat two was kind of annoying to listen to.
Eventually got a large stack...and lost a pot for what I'm pretty sure would have been for the tournament chip lead w/ ~20 left. Busted shortly too afterwards. Was pretty interesting to see how ppl play vs a guy w/ 3 bbs.
With 3 bbs...I was able to win 3 pots without showdown to get it up to 8 bbs or so. Makes my last shove utg w/ 33 seem like a spew now.
T8 - Starting chips don't define how great a value a tournament is. Neither does structure. The value comes from the strength of the field. You make money in this game because you make less mistakes than your opponents. In the live tourneys in Edmonton, the field plays so poorly at shallow depth stacks...that your value doesn't really differ if the avg stack is 15 bbs vs 20 bbs. A lot of the players make way too many fundamental errors that the value is exploiting their errors. From what I saw, they make probably even bigger errors with less than 12 bbs than they do with 20 bbs...that the value won't differ all that much. Also if you get double the starting stack in one....the tournament will on avg take longer...which will affect your hourly. You may end up winning the same amount of money...but it costs you two more hours.
meh, was just pointing out tourney A was better than tourney B......if you want to throw in different factors.....can't disagree, but it wasn't a part of the initial equation
btw, 'In the live tourneys in Edmonton, the field plays so poorly at shallow depth stacks'.......is this different anywhere else, as I haven't noticed it to be?
Well, I don't really play live too often...and won't go out of my way to play it. Compared to tourneys online/Vegas tourneys like Venetian DS/Ceasars Mega/even the WSOP DS/ and larger tourneys, I saw more misplayed hands short stacks than anywhere else.
If you're comparing it to like Calgary/Regina....I assume you're going to see the same things.
Some examples of what I'm talking about:
A) Blinds 300/600, Player A opens for 2700. Player B with 5400 stack, flats. Flops 8 high...three hearts. Play A shoves, Player B tanks for about a minute before calling with an overpair (99 - no hearts).
Blinds 400/800. Player A w/ about 10k...opens for 2400. I made it 6k...he folds.
C) I have 3 bbs after getting crippled. Open shove from CO...w/ dead SB. And no one calls.
D) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x utg. And win the blinds.
Well, I don't really play live too often...and won't go out of my way to play it. Compared to tourneys online/Vegas tourneys like Venetian DS/Ceasars Mega/even the WSOP DS/ and larger tourneys, I saw more misplayed hands short stacks than anywhere else.
If you're comparing it to like Calgary/Regina....I assume you're going to see the same things.
Some examples of what I'm talking about:
A) Blinds 300/600, Player A opens for 2700. Player B with 5400 stack, flats. Flops 8 high...three hearts. Play A shoves, Player B tanks for about a minute before calling with an overpair (99 - no hearts).
Blinds 400/800. Player A w/ about 10k...opens for 2400. I made it 6k...he folds.
C) I have 3 bbs after getting crippled. Open shove from CO...w/ dead SB. And no one calls.
D) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x utg. And win the blinds.
E) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x, and win the blinds.
Well I would like to comment here, it looks like you really don't play live too often as you say. It's very different live than online.
All of those situations are common live. Online seems very "standardized" compared. Only certain plays you should make. Live you can be so much more creative because of body language, comments, plays made earlier, etc.
Comment 1: Isn't B similar to D and E? You seem to feel it is wrong for player to open for 1/4 stack then fold to your reraise. then in D and E you open for 1/2 your stack??? You don't push? See the similarity?
Comment 2: Live is a strange animal. Players are infinitely different from one another. What works against one player doesn't necessarily work against another. It can be real easy to chip up if players are tight just by making 2.5 raises, even if you are short stacked yourself. This is especially effective if there are antes.. This just doesn't seem to work online.
In the Vegas tournies I played....I didn't see short stack mistakes this bad.
Oh for E, I open in cutoff.
And part B is totally different from D and E. I am never folding when I open there. The reason I'm not shoving, is because:
1) I hope people don't pay attention to my stack size and just say think it's a standard raise.
2) I hope people don't know how many chips I really have. Cause they can't count live.
3) This is more of an all in thing. If I shove, someone will ask the dealer...to count my stack. I rather not have the whole table know exactly what have.
In part B....if he's opening 12 bbs. Raise-folding that stack is pretty terrible. Especially after you 3x it.
Well, I don't really play live too often...and won't go out of my way to play it. Compared to tourneys online/Vegas tourneys like Venetian DS/Ceasars Mega/even the WSOP DS/ and larger tourneys, I saw more misplayed hands short stacks than anywhere else.
If you're comparing it to like Calgary/Regina....I assume you're going to see the same things.
Some examples of what I'm talking about:
A) Blinds 300/600, Player A opens for 2700. Player B with 5400 stack, flats. Flops 8 high...three hearts. Play A shoves, Player B tanks for about a minute before calling with an overpair (99 - no hearts).
Blinds 400/800. Player A w/ about 10k...opens for 2400. I made it 6k...he folds.
C) I have 3 bbs after getting crippled. Open shove from CO...w/ dead SB. And no one calls.
D) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x utg. And win the blinds.
E) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x, and win the blinds.
These are pretty standard things I've seen everywhere (Van, Alta, Vegas), mostly from simply inexperienced players....which just about every tourney I've played has lots of.
If you've not seen them often, you probably are very new to live poker.
I saw the same things playing the 1K Caesars last month.....and heard stories about the same play in the main event (unfortunately not at my table). Flatting pre for 2/3'rds their stack, and folding to a c-bet....lol.....this is, while maybe not standard, certainly not shocking to see. I've seen people blind themselves down to <2bb to many times to count.
Any how, the monthly deepstack is a better tourney than the $300's they put on for each of the series they have.....that's essentially all I'm trying to say. It is certainly an easier tourney as well, as you don't get the skilled visitors from out of town playing....as they never seem to bring the shitty players with them.
Let me know next time you go to Yellowhead, and I'll buy you a beer.
In the Vegas tournies I played....I didn't see short stack mistakes this bad.
Oh for E, I open in cutoff.
And part B is totally different from D and E. I am never folding when I open there. The reason I'm not shoving, is because:
1) I hope people don't pay attention to my stack size and just say think it's a standard raise..
just don't like this....occasionally you may get someone not paying attention, but I don't think it will have it's desired affect too often...possibly getting extra action that you don't want (ie. 3 or 4 callers, then someone leads out against your 99, on a AK3 board)
2) I hope people don't know how many chips I really have. Cause they can't count live..
IMO this is incorrect, most of the players you will be playing against play only live, not online.......so most players will have a very good idea your stack size (or can eyeball it), at least thats my experience
I played about 10 tournaments in Vegas this summer. I obviously saw some of the same mistakes, but never saw as many mistakes in this short amount of time.
As for point 1. I really don't think someone's calling range is going to differ very much if I shove 5 bbs or if I open 2.5x w/ a 5 bbs stack. Like in your example, when I shove 5 bbs or when I open 2.5x I don't expect any players to fold any Ax hands in late position. What I'm trying to do is created added fold equity from marginal hands. Marginal hands like K5, A2, Q9, J10s folding to a standard bet but calling if I had just shoved and allowed them to realize how short I am.
As for point 2...from my experience, that's not how most 'live' players process a hand. I agree that they are able to eyeball stack sizes better than me, but they don't do it as often as I do. For the majority of players, they place a way higher value on their own hand strength than stack depths. When I'm opening like this, I don't want them to look beyond their hand strength.
I'm getting them to look at their hand strength first. If I'm open shoving, they will be looking at my stack size first.
You may think it's the same thing, but I think it's different.
Comments
Sure you handle it, but inside scoop never hurts.
Anywayz, ofer2.
Nothing to say, nothing happened. Folded for about 4 hours, then jammed AQ into QQ as the only real hand I played all day.
Very frustrating day.
Strippers right across the street, dive but a fun time. Good luck in the next one! Keep us posted.
Made a good run tho, but alas, no dice.
I did make about 1200 playing 1-2 for 3 hours though.
And I had all 1200 of them knocked out of their pretty stacks when Jons friends started fighting right in the middle of the room!
Got lucky and picked up JJ and QQ through the night and limp shove. He folds K7 and 74 faceup each time. WP sir. WP.
The locals should know him, but hes quite and awesome dude.
GTA gave me this link.
Ringo Chicken Dance - YouTube
Nice work on cash games. Yes, they have been known for outbursts.
What was scrap over?
Im not sure. It was at the big PLO game at the table beside us. I assume money, but who knows.
Friends were owed not the other way around. Wrong city to be collecting though. Needless to say they have left town. Glad no one was hurt or rolled and not sorry I missed it.
It appears Edmonton is not the city of brotherly love, and I never felt super comfortable during any of the events, not to mention that I ran pretty absurdly terrible for 4 days straight.
Its 10pm and still light out.
The mosquitos are worse than Winnipeg.
The only restaurants are Subway. Literally. Theres Subway on every corner.
The $300's I found very fast and loose, but 500 and 1000 seem to Be one of the best structures in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Was very surprised 500 played to completion.
Glad you liked the cash game, that 500 max buy is gold for good players, tables are usually very deep at 1/2
Curious as to why you weren't 100% comfortable?
The structures for the 500/1K were good, not great. If I could change one thing I would have had the levels at 45 minutes throughout. They were at 30 min for about 8 levels, then go to 45. I would take the 1k structure from COPC last year and compare it to the 1k here and you'll see a noticable difference.
People should really learn the mantra that more chips do not make a better structure.
The entire 550 lasted about 13 hours.
To put that into perspective, it was about 6-7 hours shorter than a standard Venetian deepstack. As a signature event, I would expect a similar structure to the venetians.
The lack of antes in the tournaments also hurt my style of play. Which is why I wasnt really comfortable in what was going on.
All in all, they were ran well by the team and staff there.
no antes makes me feel uncomfortable too
Quoted from another post, but probably better to post this here:
I understand what you're referring to, but better value isn't the correct term. You want deeper play, but that doesn't necessarily make it better value. Especially the live tournaments here. The play is rather poor at all stack depths, that it doesn't really make it better/worse value...but it may increase variance.
In terms of the actual structure, I would agree that more people would like to have more play. I think live players don't understand structures and the tournaments at the casinos here fail to optimize the structures for a one day tourney. They see an increase starting stack to make a deeper tournament. This really isn't true.
Increasing the starting stacks, makes for more meaningless play at the beginning...but near the end of the day...the average bbs of players remaning doesn't really differ.
As an example: I played the $560. With about 20 players left, we were playing 3k/6k. About 180 registered w/ 12k starting stack. With 20 people left, the average stack size is 18 bbs.
At the next blind level of 4k/8k? If no one busts, the avg stack size would be 13.5 bbs.
The problems is that whenever you go deep in a tournament, all the previously skipped levels compound...and you get to the point where the average stack is the shallowest at the most significantly critical point of a tournament...the end.
The easiest way to really fix it, is set up the structure correctly from the beginning.
If I ran the tournament, I would start by eliminating the 25/50 level. Begin with more meaningful poker at the 50/100 level. Instead of jumping from 30 minute levels to 45 minute levels. I would rather see them keep 30 minute levels, but add more levels. Once you get up to a newly created 2.5k/5k level..then increase the level to 40 minutes. One last obvious tweak is to increase the antes to ~1/3 to 1/4th the SB...and introduce them earlier. This prevents the short stacks from folding and waiting for hands.
From my limited live experience here...your average player is too tight anyways, and it compensates for the lack of antes...and should have little impact on your game.
I also want to say that most of the dealers were pretty good. One dealer, I think her name is Amanda is pretty incredible. She's probably deals 20% more hands than some of the other dealers.
The one thing dealers really shouldn't do is count down stacks of players bets and all ins, until requested. Not only because it slows down the game, but it may alter people's action. Eg. I stick a pile of chips in there. If a player doesn't get a count...they may think it's a lot more than what it is..and may fold had the dealer not count it.
Pretty sure we played at the same table.
Did you tell one of the dealers specifically not to do this?
Agree with everything else, but how is 20k not greater value than 10k in an equal structure?
Obv we'd prefer better structure over more chips.....but when YH offers an apple (bigger starting stack) instead of a yam (smaller starting stack).......I'm going to take the apple, even though I'd rather have a beer (better structure).
Sorry for the hijack Wetts, run better imo
T8 - Starting chips don't define how great a value a tournament is. Neither does structure. The value comes from the strength of the field. You make money in this game because you make less mistakes than your opponents. In the live tourneys in Edmonton, the field plays so poorly at shallow depth stacks...that your value doesn't really differ if the avg stack is 15 bbs vs 20 bbs. A lot of the players make way too many fundamental errors that the value is exploiting their errors. From what I saw, they make probably even bigger errors with less than 12 bbs than they do with 20 bbs...that the value won't differ all that much. Also if you get double the starting stack in one....the tournament will on avg take longer...which will affect your hourly. You may end up winning the same amount of money...but it costs you two more hours.
Yes, I was table 1 seat 1.
Yep, hope it was better luck for you. I was there to start.
Eventually got a large stack...and lost a pot for what I'm pretty sure would have been for the tournament chip lead w/ ~20 left. Busted shortly too afterwards. Was pretty interesting to see how ppl play vs a guy w/ 3 bbs.
With 3 bbs...I was able to win 3 pots without showdown to get it up to 8 bbs or so. Makes my last shove utg w/ 33 seem like a spew now.
Oh well
Thanks for letting us share in your misery
meh, was just pointing out tourney A was better than tourney B......if you want to throw in different factors.....can't disagree, but it wasn't a part of the initial equation
btw, 'In the live tourneys in Edmonton, the field plays so poorly at shallow depth stacks'.......is this different anywhere else, as I haven't noticed it to be?
If you're comparing it to like Calgary/Regina....I assume you're going to see the same things.
Some examples of what I'm talking about:
A) Blinds 300/600, Player A opens for 2700. Player B with 5400 stack, flats. Flops 8 high...three hearts. Play A shoves, Player B tanks for about a minute before calling with an overpair (99 - no hearts).
C) I have 3 bbs after getting crippled. Open shove from CO...w/ dead SB. And no one calls.
D) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x utg. And win the blinds.
E) I have ~5 bbs, open 2.5x, and win the blinds.
Well I would like to comment here, it looks like you really don't play live too often as you say. It's very different live than online.
All of those situations are common live. Online seems very "standardized" compared. Only certain plays you should make. Live you can be so much more creative because of body language, comments, plays made earlier, etc.
Comment 1: Isn't B similar to D and E? You seem to feel it is wrong for player to open for 1/4 stack then fold to your reraise. then in D and E you open for 1/2 your stack??? You don't push? See the similarity?
Comment 2: Live is a strange animal. Players are infinitely different from one another. What works against one player doesn't necessarily work against another. It can be real easy to chip up if players are tight just by making 2.5 raises, even if you are short stacked yourself. This is especially effective if there are antes.. This just doesn't seem to work online.
Oh for E, I open in cutoff.
And part B is totally different from D and E. I am never folding when I open there. The reason I'm not shoving, is because:
1) I hope people don't pay attention to my stack size and just say think it's a standard raise.
2) I hope people don't know how many chips I really have. Cause they can't count live.
3) This is more of an all in thing. If I shove, someone will ask the dealer...to count my stack. I rather not have the whole table know exactly what have.
In part B....if he's opening 12 bbs. Raise-folding that stack is pretty terrible. Especially after you 3x it.
These are pretty standard things I've seen everywhere (Van, Alta, Vegas), mostly from simply inexperienced players....which just about every tourney I've played has lots of.
If you've not seen them often, you probably are very new to live poker.
I saw the same things playing the 1K Caesars last month.....and heard stories about the same play in the main event (unfortunately not at my table). Flatting pre for 2/3'rds their stack, and folding to a c-bet....lol.....this is, while maybe not standard, certainly not shocking to see. I've seen people blind themselves down to <2bb to many times to count.
Any how, the monthly deepstack is a better tourney than the $300's they put on for each of the series they have.....that's essentially all I'm trying to say. It is certainly an easier tourney as well, as you don't get the skilled visitors from out of town playing....as they never seem to bring the shitty players with them.
Let me know next time you go to Yellowhead, and I'll buy you a beer.
IMO this is incorrect, most of the players you will be playing against play only live, not online.......so most players will have a very good idea your stack size (or can eyeball it), at least thats my experience
As for point 1. I really don't think someone's calling range is going to differ very much if I shove 5 bbs or if I open 2.5x w/ a 5 bbs stack. Like in your example, when I shove 5 bbs or when I open 2.5x I don't expect any players to fold any Ax hands in late position. What I'm trying to do is created added fold equity from marginal hands. Marginal hands like K5, A2, Q9, J10s folding to a standard bet but calling if I had just shoved and allowed them to realize how short I am.
As for point 2...from my experience, that's not how most 'live' players process a hand. I agree that they are able to eyeball stack sizes better than me, but they don't do it as often as I do. For the majority of players, they place a way higher value on their own hand strength than stack depths. When I'm opening like this, I don't want them to look beyond their hand strength.
I'm getting them to look at their hand strength first. If I'm open shoving, they will be looking at my stack size first.
You may think it's the same thing, but I think it's different.