Brag and Beat 1-2 Imperial Palace

isnork

I had built my $160 buy in up to just north of $700 when this mess came up.

Moved to a new table after ours broke, UTG+1 I had picked up a decent read on by this time as he was at the old table, MP+1 had only been there for a short time and had shown to be pretty loose agressive.

On the button dealt AhAs raise to 15. UTG+1 calls, MP+1 calls.

Flop 2s 6s 7s, utg+1 bets 25, MP+1 calls. I put UTG on top pair, top kicker at best, UTG could be anything. I raise to 100, UTG folds, MP+1 calls. At this stage, I am thinking Ks with a piece of the flop, maybe a made hand with 2 S... Turn Qs...score. Check, I push him all in $110,he insta calls and he shows 22,

Rivers a 6c of course.

Obviously my own fault that I over played them, in hindsight calling the flop then pushing the turn may have been a better option, that said based on the play I saw after this, not sure that would have made a difference anyways.

Still a profitable session...well I recooped my, let it ride, 3 card poker and craps losses, (got to stay away from the pit) so happy about that. 2 nights down, 4 to go.

JimmyHo

is this a deja vu post (I'm too lazy to look it up)? I recall another post where a person was in Vegas and fell in love with an over pair. If its you, maybe you should start to notice a pattern.

Graham

I find playing aces can be quite difficult post flop in these situations and you are almost always going broke. Unlucky.

JimmyHo

Graham wrote: »

I find playing aces can be quite difficult post flop in these situations and you are almost always going broke. Unlucky.

I usually play the 1/8 rule when playing small pocket pairs; I will call a raise = 1/8 of the raisers stack (and assuming that I have them covered). If they hit their SET, most players will lose a lot, if not all, their chips in this situation. I remember a hand in Vegas when I had AA and the flop comes like K68 and both the other players hit their SET.

Wetts1012

pokerJAH wrote: »

is this a deja vu post (I'm too lazy to look it up)? I recall another post where a person was in Vegas and fell in love with an over pair. If its you, maybe you should start to notice a pattern.

I dont see anywhere in OP where Hero fell in love with an overpair.

He made the nut flush on the turn, and got villain to put his stack in behind.

Regardless of the line he took to get there, I say WP.

JimmyHo

Wetts1012 wrote: »

I dont see anywhere in OP where Hero fell in love with an overpair.

He made the nut flush on the turn, and got villain to put his stack in behind.

Regardless of the line he took to get there, I say WP.

that's what I get for reading these threads half asleep after a long ride back from Ottawa; my bad, your right, I miss read the hand. Unlucky break on the river. Shit happens.

ReefAquarium

pokerJAH wrote: »

I usually play the 1/8 rule when playing small pocket pairs; I will call a raise = 1/8 of the raisers stack (and assuming that I have them covered). If they hit their trips, most players will lose a lot, if not all, their chips in this situation. I remember a hand in Vegas when I had AA and the flop comes like K68 and both the other players hit trips.

I think that rule is fine if you replace the 8 with a 25.


Where did you get that rule from?

moose

I want to know how two players hit trips on a K68 board, or one for that matter...

JimmyHo

ReefAquarium wrote: »

I think that rule is fine if you replace the 8 with a 25.


Where did you get that rule from?

I recall the odds of hitting a set on the flop with a pair is around 7.5:1. Therefore, if you are getting 8:1 or better implied odds, a call would be justified. I think Harrington recommends a 10:1 rule in his cash game books. I typically use an 8:1 rule, not unless there are more than one player already in the pot and I think I can score big if I happen to hit my set.

25:1 seems really tight. Don't think you would be playing many pocket pairs with those strict requirements.

JimmyHo

moose wrote: »

I want to know how two players hit trips on a K68 board, or one for that matter...

trips = set; too many English majors in this world. I have fixed my original post.

moose

Trips<set. You are not going to get as much action.

However there are more bluffing opportunities which can add value to a paired board.

compuease

pokerJAH wrote: »

I recall the odds of hitting a set on the flop with a pair is around 7.5:1. Therefore, if you are getting 8:1 or better implied odds, a call would be justified. I think Harrington recommends a 10:1 rule in his cash game books. I typically use an 8:1 rule, not unless there are more than one player already in the pot and I think I can score big if I happen to hit my set.

25:1 seems really tight. Don't think you would be playing many pocket pairs with those strict requirements.

Are you not getting odds to hit mixed up with implied odds? 7.5 to 1 to hit, but you want the effective stacks much deeper to allow the implied odds to make it worth it. ie at 1/2 and it's heads up, I fold small pairs to a $10. raise if one of us only has an $80. (effective) or less stack. Now if I have multiple callers ahead of me, probably do call, even if effective stacks are $80. because I may get more than 1 person all in if I hit.
HU I think I would need an effective stack of at least 130-140, which I guess is 13-14:1 rule... lol, we all have our own guidlelines which is what makes this game so interesting. By this time we should all at least understand the implications of implied odds even if we disagree on the numbers.

JimmyHo

compuease wrote: »

Are you not getting odds to hit mixed up with implied odds? 7.5 to 1 to hit, but you want the effective stacks much deeper to allow the implied odds to make it worth it.

I am referring to implied odds; I don't care what's in the pot when I make this call, I'm more interested in their stack in case I hit. I don't want to make this call if they have insufficient chips behind to make the call justified. If it cost me $15 to call but they have $200 behind, 7/8 I lose $15, 1/8 I make $200. I usually consider one stack at a time as its not very often you get two others players falling in love with a flop that they are willing to risk all their chips.

compuease

pokerJAH wrote: »

I am referring to implied odds; I don't care what's in the pot when I make this call, I'm more interested in their stack in case I hit. I don't want to make this call if they have insufficient chips behind to make the call justified. If it cost me $15 to call but they have $200 behind, 7/8 I lose $15, 1/8 I make $200. I usually consider one stack at a time as its not very often you get two others players falling in love with a flop that they are willing to risk all their chips.

I don't agree, it's not 1/8 you get his stack, you have to hit ( 1/8 ) AND have him have a hand that he will go broke with, ie AK and a A or K hit. Even if you hit and he hits with AK, doesn't always mean you get his entire stack. Not everyone donks off with TPTK. Even on the times he hits really hard, ie he hits both his A and K and you hit your lower set he has redraws to beat you (4 outs). Therefore you both need to have pretty deep stacks to allow for this. That's the number we don't all agree on. And I don't think there is a definative #, it depends on the table mix and type of player. You also should consider more than 1 stack at a time as the more players that see the flop, the more chance there is that someone will pay you off if you hit, therefore greater implied odds.

compuease

You know Jah, the more I read your original post the more I think we may be arguing the same thing, just differ on the relative stack sizes necessary to justify a call. To sum up, the way I play it with smaller pairs at 1/2 is if the raise is at least less than 14 times the effective stack size I will call. If more players have called or are likely to call that number is reduced.

JimmyHo

compuease wrote: »

You know Jah, the more I read your original post the more I think we may be arguing the same thing, just differ on the relative stack sizes necessary to justify a call. To sum up, the way I play it with smaller pairs at 1/2 is if the raise is at least less than 14 times the effective stack size I will call. If more players have called or are likely to call that number is reduced.

that's just my general rule; everyone is different and its also table dependant. Now I have my Harrington Cash Games Vol. 1 handy. He is a little tighter with a requirement of 25:1. "Small Pairs and Implied Odds: I look for opponents who have a stack at least 25 times the size of the bet I have to call to see the flop".

Personally I think 25:1 is too tight. That's only $8 on a $200 max table and $4 on a $100 max table which is pretty extreme.

compuease

pokerJAH wrote: »

Personally I think 25:1 is too tight. That's only $8 on a $200 max table and $4 on a $100 max table which is pretty extreme.

Agreed, I'm tighter than you at 8-1 but 14 is pretty tight too, if I had to put a number to it withough considering position or player type I would say 14-1 heads up, reduce the 14 by 2 for every additional player. ie if we're 4 to the flop I would consider 10-1 ie a $10. raise means effective stacks of $100. woiuld be necessary.

JimmyHo

honestly, I usually play 10:1 depending on the player raising. Also it depends on the size of the raise. At 1/2, I will usually call any bet under $15 unless the raiser is really short stacked and it is certain no other players will make the call (it has been folded around to me). The only concern is getting re-raised which you must always be cognizant of.

I think the main point we are trying to get across is be aware of the other player's stack sizes when playing these hands against a raise.