Right Fold/Wrong Fold?

westside8westside8
in No Limit / Pot Limit Holdem
Hand History Posting and Rakeback

A little background...2nd orbit at table, no reads/stats on any player (because I have played on FTP exclusively in terms of cash game for the past 3 months). Hero has been extremely active (with legit hands) but has gone without showdown (overpair, set, two pair).

Comment on the fold?
«1

Comments

  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Deleted
  • waltsfriendwaltsfriend
    I assume that the third raise is aces or kings. Good fold. Too bad you didn't get to see the flop.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Easy fold 3 ways.

    If it's HU with the shortstacker I snap it. Im guessing he came in light (KQ / Ax)?
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    I push every time there at a 6max 100nl table. Short stack is likely light vs your range (even kk isn't that bad if you have any fold equity vs the 100 stack) and larger stack is isolating enough times that it is worth it.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    It's tough because the shortstack is often going to be an idiot and not have a huge hand. I think I still fold because I imagine the cold 4-bet is typically extremely strong at those limits but I don't play enough to really know.
  • _obv__obv_
    I'd have a hard time folding here especially since you have been really active at the table
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Do we really not have an equity edge here? You've got an A and a K in your hand. Are we scared that shortstack has a weaker ace, stealing an out?
  • cadillaccadillac
    Tough one. But I like the fold.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    I'm surprised at the number of people saying fold given that 4 bettor is a short stack.
  • cadillaccadillac
    no the 5 bettor is.

    we 3 bet. full stack 4 bets. shortie shoves and action is to us with the full stack behind who 4 bet us is yet to act.

    fold
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    ok, my bad -- the 5 bettor -- i still see this as isolating the short stack by LP and typical short stack push, I still call given the range for the short stack.
  • cadillaccadillac
    I am not concerned with the short stack. If it were just him I get it in always.


    First I would consider the 4 bettors range here and I would think QQ+,AK pretty much covers it. Maybe you could throw JJ in there too. (I know he showed up with less)


    I wouldn't chuck any bluffs in there because it is a bad spot for one.


    You only fold out the JJ and QQ maybe if you shove so you are in bad shape against his calling range which is why I would fold.
  • g2g2
    Without looking at the results, I snap it all in. It's 6max and you have AKs. I think the reraise from the SB is an attempt to isolate the short stack. I'd put SB on AJ-AK 99-QQ, and with the very few times they have AA/KK you've got equity with this being a 3-way pot.

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    4,235,629,860 games 6.798 secs 623,070,000 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 35.458% 29.52% 05.94% 1250406660 251452405.00 { AdKd }
    Hand 1: 32.271% 28.40% 03.87% 1202994624 163890773.50 { 99+, AJs+, AJo+ }
    Hand 2: 32.271% 28.40% 03.87% 1202994624 163890773.50 { 99+, AJs+, AJo+ }

    /g2
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    I have to say I doubt I would have folded. Six handed, with a short stack trying to bully? Chances are good I'm seeing the flop on this hand. If I'm beat, I'm beat, time to reload.
  • actyperactyper
    I'm with Cadi on the 4bet range. Does isolating without a shove happen in 100NL. Doesn't calling happen more often with ranges that you don't care about "99-QQ, AJ+"
  • SMOOTH55SMOOTH55
    You had 2 viable choices in this spot - push or fold with these stack sizes. You can make an argument for both.

    Me, I probably fold, but that would depend on my read of the player "DesEsseintes".
  • MickeyHoldemMickeyHoldem
    I like your fold here... What's with all you people assuming the short stack has a wider than normal range here? This is a cash game... and with no reads, we don't know if the short stack bought in short and is playing "short stack" poker. Also, in cash games, many players tighten up if they have taken a beat or two and wait to double up.

    The short stack only has $4 invested when he pushes, another thing to consider. He raised and has been re-raised, and re-re-raised, and still pushed.

    Nothing wrong with folding... don't be too results-oriented here.... But buddy-list those donks FOR SURE!!!!
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    MickeyHoldem wrote: »
    I like your fold here... What's with all you people assuming the short stack has a wider than normal range here? This is a cash game... and with no reads, we don't know if the short stack bought in short and is playing "short stack" poker. Also, in cash games, many players tighten up if they have taken a beat or two and wait to double up.

    The short stack only has $4 invested when he pushes, another thing to consider. He raised and has been re-raised, and re-re-raised, and still pushed.

    Nothing wrong with folding... don't be too results-oriented here.... But buddy-list those donks FOR SURE!!!!

    Why? So he can be pushed off the best hand again? How are they donks exactly? They got him to fold.
  • PantsonfirePantsonfire
    I would need reads to fold here. This is a cash game and given the limits, I couldn't narrow the ranges enough to fold without prior reads. Call and reload if necessary. That's a fact of cash games.

    And when I say don't fold, I mean shove as your next move. You have some fold equity if you place yourself in DesEsseintes shoes.
  • GrahamGraham
    Thats quite an aggressive table... Very tough decision and with betting like that you almost have to assume one of them has QQ or better (though it obviously didn't work out that way this time). I think your fold was the best play, though if I saw a similar situation like this with these players prior to this then I am probably calling.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    My first instinct was to fold to the fourth raise. However, calculating the pot odds which nobody seems to have done, Hero is getting juicy pot odds of 2.8-to-1 ($177.10 in the pot and $46.70 to call), i.e., 26% break-even equity.

    Given that you have "been extremely active" and you have AK in a 6-max table, it is even less likely that DesEsseintes' re-raise means AA or KK. Folding your $12 is not a bad option since you will probably get to see what the two players are re-reraising with. Without reads, it is such a close decision that I keep changing my mind, but my final answer is:
    I would re-raise DesEsseintes all-in to $105.80, transferring the difficult decision on him.
    g2 wrote: »
    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 35.458% 29.52% 05.94% 1250406660 251452405.00 { AdKd }
    Hand 1: 32.271% 28.40% 03.87% 1202994624 163890773.50 { 99+, AJs+, AJo+ }
    Hand 2: 32.271% 28.40% 03.87% 1202994624 163890773.50 { 99+, AJs+, AJo+ }
  • cadillaccadillac
    I would be careful justifying a call this way Blondfish. You look good against the range you have used but me thinks that the range you have used for the villain is far too wide.
  • MickeyHoldemMickeyHoldem
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    Why? So he can be pushed off the best hand again? How are they donks exactly? They got him to fold.

    OP has no reads... Until you have such reads, it is -ev to assume a 5-betting range includes AJo. Now you know. If villian(s) continues to play this way... Follow him around and ride the variance train.
  • CanadaDaveCanadaDave
    cadillac wrote: »
    I would be careful justifying a call this way Blondfish. You look good against the range you have used but me thinks that the range you have used for the villain is far too wide.

    Blondefish, I think your pot odds calculation is off... When hero has the decision for $46.70, there is only 107.7 in the pot (numero's $58.70, your $12, dese's $36, and BB of $1). So you are only getting 2.3 to 1, or 30% break-even equity.


    Also, I agree with caddy. I think range is far too wide with no reads. If you adjust the range taking into account, perhaps numero thinks you are agressive, and is trying to isolate SB, but the SB you would think has a decent hand for sure. You no longer have the odds to make that move:


    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 28.500% 22.11% 06.39% 280031493 80939374.00 { AdKd }
    Hand 1: 37.653% 31.07% 06.58% 393569718 83339822.50 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
    Hand 2: 33.847% 33.21% 00.64% 420602541 8093747.50 { 99+, AQs, AQo }
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    Even with a tigher range you are looking at a coin flip in the 'worst' hand range scenario but if either opponent is a little lighter, you gain equity.

    I'd say to just go for it and if it's vs AA and KK start doing your diamond flop dance.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    wtf is going on here.

    1. the decision to you is for your last $83, anything calculating pot odds like all your money isn't going is in ridiculous, this is a push/fold decision and while there's an outside chance the reraiser might hero fold to a push, you're getting called close to 100% of the time.

    2. This is not some big 3-way pot. Half your money is going in a side pot heads up against the cold 4-better who obviously has the much stronger range. This is bad for your equity.

    3. Haven't played 100 NL in a while but I kinda doubt he 4-bettor has a range wider than QQ+, AK, and it might even be weighted more towards the big pairs.
  • MickeyHoldemMickeyHoldem
    SirWatts wrote: »
    wtf is going on here.

    A voice of reason... Thank-you!
  • cadillaccadillac
    SirWatts wrote: »
    wtf is going on here.

    [X] Made my day
  • CanadaDaveCanadaDave
    SirWatts wrote: »
    wtf is going on here.

    1. the decision to you is for your last $83, anything calculating pot odds like all your money isn't going is in ridiculous, this is a push/fold decision and while there's an outside chance the reraiser might hero fold to a push, you're getting called close to 100% of the time.

    2. This is not some big 3-way pot. Half your money is going in a side pot heads up against the cold 4-better who obviously has the much stronger range. This is bad for your equity.

    3. Haven't played 100 NL in a while but I kinda doubt he 4-bettor has a range wider than QQ+, AK, and it might even be weighted more towards the big pairs.

    The only reason I calculated the odds of the call, is because I was correcting Blondefish's original calculation. Obviously it makes little sense to call in a situation where you'd clearly be pot commited. I wasn't saying it was a good idea to call. Clearly a push or fold situation.
  • JimmyHoJimmyHo
    you should have asked the same question without showing the flop, etc. Probably would have gotten a totally different response.

    Personally, I would likely fold in this situation. You can lose a lot of money with AK if you don't improve. More than likely, one of the other two players has a pair, and if you are facing a bigger pair (which is likely with this action), you are dominated.

    I don't like bingo poker in a cash game (i.e. all-in pre-flop). Your time is better spent trying to improve your post flop game.
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