I took your guys advice, and it worked!!!!
For those of you who missed the last post. I posted a hand where I flopped a set, and turned a fullhouse. I slow played it, and only extracted 500 chips out of the person that chased the flush.
I took your advice guys, and shoved all my chips in on the river, and got 2 people to call me! Thank you....:) Wish me luck in the tourney!!!
PokerStars Game #10418908718: Tournament #52784124, $3.00+$0.25 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2007/06/13 - 16:51:58 (ET)
Table '52784124 5' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: vorne (1005 in chips)
Seat 2: xfish&chipsx (1450 in chips)
Seat 3: deerpuncher (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: iNoBluffYou (890 in chips)
Seat 5: nickypotz (5290 in chips)
Seat 7: DGomes1 (1450 in chips)
Seat 9: Discgoln (1945 in chips)
xfish&chipsx: posts small blind 15
deerpuncher: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to iNoBluffYou [Qh Ah]
iNoBluffYou said, "i knew it"
iNoBluffYou said, "lol"
iNoBluffYou said, ":) i had QQ"
iNoBluffYou: calls 30
nickypotz: calls 30
DGomes1: folds
Discgoln: folds
vorne: folds
xfish&chipsx: calls 15
deerpuncher: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ac Th 9h]
xfish&chipsx: checks
deerpuncher: checks
iNoBluffYou: checks
nickypotz: checks
*** TURN *** [Ac Th 9h] [Jh]
xfish&chipsx: checks
deerpuncher: checks
iNoBluffYou: checks
nickypotz: bets 30
xfish&chipsx: folds
deerpuncher: calls 30
iNoBluffYou: calls 30
*** RIVER *** [Ac Th 9h Jh] [7d]
deerpuncher: checks
iNoBluffYou: bets 830 and is all-in
nickypotz: calls 830
deerpuncher: calls 830
*** SHOW DOWN ***
iNoBluffYou: shows [Qh Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
nickypotz: mucks hand
deerpuncher: mucks hand
iNoBluffYou collected 2700 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2700 | Rake 0
Board [Ac Th 9h Jh 7d]
Seat 1: vorne (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: xfish&chipsx (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: deerpuncher (big blind) mucked [5s 8h]
Seat 4: iNoBluffYou showed [Qh Ah] and won (2700) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: nickypotz mucked [8d 9s]
Seat 7: DGomes1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Discgoln folded before Flop (didn't bet)
I took your advice guys, and shoved all my chips in on the river, and got 2 people to call me! Thank you....:) Wish me luck in the tourney!!!
PokerStars Game #10418908718: Tournament #52784124, $3.00+$0.25 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2007/06/13 - 16:51:58 (ET)
Table '52784124 5' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: vorne (1005 in chips)
Seat 2: xfish&chipsx (1450 in chips)
Seat 3: deerpuncher (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: iNoBluffYou (890 in chips)
Seat 5: nickypotz (5290 in chips)
Seat 7: DGomes1 (1450 in chips)
Seat 9: Discgoln (1945 in chips)
xfish&chipsx: posts small blind 15
deerpuncher: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to iNoBluffYou [Qh Ah]
iNoBluffYou said, "i knew it"
iNoBluffYou said, "lol"
iNoBluffYou said, ":) i had QQ"
iNoBluffYou: calls 30
nickypotz: calls 30
DGomes1: folds
Discgoln: folds
vorne: folds
xfish&chipsx: calls 15
deerpuncher: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ac Th 9h]
xfish&chipsx: checks
deerpuncher: checks
iNoBluffYou: checks
nickypotz: checks
*** TURN *** [Ac Th 9h] [Jh]
xfish&chipsx: checks
deerpuncher: checks
iNoBluffYou: checks
nickypotz: bets 30
xfish&chipsx: folds
deerpuncher: calls 30
iNoBluffYou: calls 30
*** RIVER *** [Ac Th 9h Jh] [7d]
deerpuncher: checks
iNoBluffYou: bets 830 and is all-in
nickypotz: calls 830
deerpuncher: calls 830
*** SHOW DOWN ***
iNoBluffYou: shows [Qh Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
nickypotz: mucks hand
deerpuncher: mucks hand
iNoBluffYou collected 2700 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2700 | Rake 0
Board [Ac Th 9h Jh 7d]
Seat 1: vorne (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: xfish&chipsx (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: deerpuncher (big blind) mucked [5s 8h]
Seat 4: iNoBluffYou showed [Qh Ah] and won (2700) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: nickypotz mucked [8d 9s]
Seat 7: DGomes1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Discgoln folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Comments
Is this a gimmick account or something?
I'm pretty sure that this flop check is even worse than the other one.
Flop; Top pair, good kicker, and the nut flush draw...with the weak action in front of you, a nice 1/2 pot size bet would have either taken it down here, or at the very least give you some idea on what your opponents have. Right now, you haven't got a clue.
Turn; Nut Flush! But a Minimum bet??? Anyone with a good ace or another flush draw is going to call you, and a minimum bet only makes it profitable for someone to draw to a boat if they have A10, or A9, or slow playing a set already and hoping to pair the board. Don't be afraid to show strength here, a pot sized bet would have worked great. You still don't know what they have either.
River; a brick...I'm REALLY surprised they both called you on this board given their VERY weak hands, but you did give them the odds to do it all the way.
You tripled up, yes, but you're still looking for the BIG kill shot to do it with. This time you got it, but next time, don't be afraid to show strength from the start. Taking a lot of small pots will win you more tournaments than trying to set up your opponents for the BIG KILL SHOT. You gotta learn that you don't NEED to see the river in order to win a pot.
Maybe, but as already pointed out by others, the glaring error is that hero needs how to learn to build big pots with big hands so that he can get it all in on the river (or before) without it being the egregious overbet that this was.
This has to be a troll post...
If it is, then my analysis is worthless I guess. Doubt it though, he did post an invitation to view him playing the tournament earlier.
You points are well taken though Scooby...I was trying to stress the lack of strength throughout the hand. Only invites bad beats to come a knocking on the river.
Before I used to pump pre-flop with AK AQ AJ and see rags on the flop.
For instance if the blinds are 10/20 I make it 120 to go, and I get 4 callers on a raggy flop. I make a contination bet, and get called again by everyone. This leaves me with 900 left in chips. I then check, and someone fires out ALL IN. I have busted very early in tournaments because of this, now my new approach is to limp in.
I seem to be cashing more because of this strategy. You will see the increase in my Sharkscope.
Thank you for the great advice.
PS. What's a Troll post? i'm still new to forum lingo....
If you limp hands like AQ then anyone paying attention will know you are raising with AK or better. So now you don't get paid off on your big hands.
Firstly, I can vouch that "Inobluff" / "Rockwood" does in fact exist.. he railed me in my stars 180 person yesterday
Secondly, this has come up several times now, but I can't help but notice that Rockwood is asking for help, and quite a few people have treated him poorly. Sure some of our more experienced players may see this as poor or inappropriate play, but that is no call for being tactless... so... FWIW, I'll contribute my thoughts for Rockwood's benefit, and maybe role model how we could possibly improve the tone of the forum of late.
Pre-flop
Okay, you're UTG with a shorter stack, but plenty of time to play given the blinds. Let's look at the big three here
Position - it sucks, you're UTG and likely not to have position on anyone post-flop
Players - Who knows really, but given the buy-in, let's assume rookies, calling too much, not raising in the right spot, love to draw out.
Cards - You have a premium hand, only dominated by 4 others (AA, KK, QQ and AK)
So, all of these facts point to straightforward, ground and pound play. I would raise here. Given the blinds of 15/30, I would make it at least 90-120 (depending on how big other pre-flop raises have been), I Never fold this here, but a call isn't much better.
Why a call is bad:
- A limp often causes a bajillion other limpers, you don't want to worry about 2 pair / sets if you hit your A alone. If the flop drops down A high, but with say AJ9 or A56, you could be behind or at least fighting off a drawing hand.
- If you get raised behind you, it means there's a higher range of cards behind you that could be doing it (especially considering there may be a few more limpers and someone may just try to steal), but if you raise first, a re-raise usually means be cautious at least. Given that you limped, what do you do in case of a raise? Do you call again? What information do you now have because of the actions you've taken and what they've done behind you?
- Thirdly, if you have the best hand right now, you want more money in the pot (i.e. poker 101)
Okay, so you limped, and you get one limper behind you, the SB complete, and BB checking. 4 to the flop... pot is 120
FLOP AcTh9h
Okay... you've hit your Ace AND you have a nut flush draw as well. THis is a GREAT flop for you... we hope, and (lucky you) you have position on 2/3 of the people in the hand! You have gotten VERY lucky here, so you need to exploit those times you get lucky, so you should be betting. In this case, with the pot of 120, I would likely bet around 90 bucks to take away the straight draw odds, and maybe make it look like a little I'm scared of the flush too.
Here's why a check is a bad play IMO:
- You're giving drawing hands a free card
- You're not getting money in when you're (hopefully) ahead
- You're not getting any information from what others have in their hand
- If you were going for the check-raise, it usually kills the hand there, or makes you decide for all your chips. A straight out bet is best here.
Pot still 120
Turn: Jh
Okay, you now have the fourth best hand possible, losing only to three straight flushes that are out there - though unlikely, your pre-flop passivity hasn't excluded those possibilities. But, again, you have no idea as to what others are holding (though aruguably they've no clue what you've got either, but at these limits, most people have no clue what anyone has anyways). You've also lost any money that you may have been able to draw out from anyone that had "something" but was also worried for the flush. So, you should bet and see what happens, hopefully someone has a set and is drawing (though that's is poor play on the flop) to the boat, or hopefully someone has a weaker flush. But you check, okay.. hopefully someone will represent and you can re-raise... so, you check, someone bets, and again you just call, even though you've already gotten one other person behind coming along - a re-raise here would likely have won you the hand outright, and prevented any potential draw losses, but it also makes anyone that does call err in doing so.
Pot 210
River: 7d
A good card, changes nothing overall except maybe someone made their foolish draw to a straight. Okay.. so now have a realistic nut hand, and should bet at the 210 pot. You did bet here, but 830 is a LOT and you were lucky to get two callers... so, given the results of this hand, you likely got the most money you could, but this is likely a fluke more than anything else.
Let's run it the other way....
Pre-flop
UTG raises to 90 bucks
Let's say that 89 here is feeling froggy with his big stack and calls, SB sees the limper, figures himself live and for $75 to win 215? Meh, let's try it . I'll say the BB folds since I haven't a clue what he had.
Good because:
We get more money in the pot, while I'm likely ahead,
Given that nobody raised behind me, it's not likely that I've got AA, KK, QQ, or AK behind me (though just calling with AK is what the cool kids seem to be doing).
It puts some fear into the other players since I'm the aggressor.
Pot: 300 (already 2.5+ x the pot you had at this point)
Flop Ac Th 9h
Good flop as before! Well, let's put out a little bet here to discourage the draws
UTG bets 150 (takes away odds, and tries to get money in)
Let's assume Nickypotz calls, since he figures he has a pair, and a backdoor draw, but we lose the SB anyways.
Good because:
- Makes drawing hands make an error (the 1/2 pot bet makes a call poor for anyone that isn't on an open ended straight flush draw)
- The lack of raises behind me, given the board texture makes it very unlikely that there's a set around here. I think right now, my hand is good.
- Gets more money in the pot
Pot 600
Turn Jh
Okay.. now we're in milking mode...
UTG checks, allowing nickypotz a chance to "steal". Nicky decides to check behind to draw for free, hopefully thinking that we're hating our AK now since the flush and straights are out there.
Why I think this is good
- As I said earlier, these limits people love bluffing you off pots on "sick reads", so I give some mis-information on what is currently the likely nuts. I'm extra sure because my preflop action likely eliminated any hands like Q8h, though QKh and 78h are possible.
Pot : 600 still
River 7d
UTG bets out... 300, sensing the check from nickypotz as weakness, maybe the A is good. nickypotz is much smarter (haha) though, and has trapped UTG, so given that UTG only has 350 left, nicky pushes them all in, figuring they're pot committed. Utg calls and wins with the flush.
Why I like my line here
Looks like a steal, and I'm hoping that my opponent thinks I"m trying to re-steal on a scary board, but with his straight, he may think he's good. Couple this with my shortish stack, and his big one, he's more likely to try to pump me.
Total pot 1900
Okay.. so you won 2700 vs. my 1900, and I won't lie, I took some liberties with the action, however, in the long run.. this is a much better way to play the hand, for some reasons as listed.
Now, as an interesting topic, how do people like the way I may have played it? (be nice!
Mark
This is a dangerous line of thinking that many new players make...
We often refer to it as "results oriented thinking". You remember a few big hands where AQ got you broke against 10 Q or something silly, but you forget the times where your AQ got a lot of money in against A7 and held up (not to mention you don't always see the hands like that as people muck), since those stand out more... this is usually how people form "favorite hands" (e.g. "Gee, I just cracked AA with 78!! It's the best hand EVER").
Further, the continuation bet is used by SO many people nowadays, that you really have to think a little more before just knee-jerking into it. Some players can't be bluffed. They'll give you their money when you "continuation bet" with a set as well, so don't try to bully them out.
Mark
Mark, go read his other post(s). People have been giving him legitmate advice which he completely ignores and refuses to engage in actual discussion. If it's thereputic for you to write 4 pages of dissertation that will be equally ignored, go ahead but quit raggin' on the people that got sick of him.
Not a bad version of "What I Would Have Done" but why get all tricky and sneaky at this buyin? You don't need to be. You're assuming your opponent has you on AKo and you are hating the board draws. At this level, I don't see alot of that kind of forethought by opponents...they see a chance, anywhere from slim to huge, and they play it out. At this level, solid by the book play will win you pots more so than seeking out areas to be tricky.
I hope my previous post hasn't discouraged you Rockwood, it's meant to help you expand your knowledge. Wasn't that long ago I was in a similar position as you (and for the most part still am). The forum is here to help you learn, and posting hand histories is one of the best ways to do that, but be prepared for some harsh comments by some that may view as suspicious.
BTW, welcome to the forum. Keep posting, keep participating, keep learning.
Don't try to argue with fools, they bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!
Anytime people are calling when you're ahead, you want that call... you may not want the result, but if you took AsQc against 5d6d for $1 per time, 100 times you (should) win $58 to their $42...
This is how you <should> be thinking of things.... at a very basic level.
Oh, and for what it's worth, I *LOVE* pocket pairs... if you hit a set, Mmmmmmmm.... implied odds. But, NOT for all-ins since I feel I'm a better player than most people at these levels, I'll make them put their money in in worse spots than 50/50.... not to mention that they could have a bigger pair, making *me* the donkey.
Mark
Don't worry too much about BBC_Z Rockwood.... he's just kinda "quirky"!
Much love BBC
Mark
Before you play another hand of poker....Read something.
Your thought process is so flawed at this point that no one can teach you what you need to know in a single post. You need to understand position and you need to understand betting for value. These two things alone will probably be enough to make you a winner at these games you are currently playing
Take your good hands and bet them. You make money in poker when your opponent makes mistakes against you. So when your hand is good you put money in the pot and make him pay to try and make a better hand. Sometimes he will and that is ok because if you bet for value with your good hands, most of the time you will get paid off and that is the whole point. You are not at the point where you can play tricky and even understand what you are doing so be straight forward and play your good hands fast (bet them.) Put the decisions on the other players, don't be a caller, be a bettor and put the decisions on them. The weak players will sometimes fold the better hand to your bets and maniacs will pay you off with weaker ones.
You don't want to limp in with AA and check the flop, check the turn and push all of your chips in on the river because AA is only one pair. AA is only 85% to win against a random hand so make the bastard pay to try and beat you.
Learn to calculate the odds of you making your draws and the odds that the pot is laying you and only draw to big hands when your are getting the right price. From the hands you have posted I think this may be often at the level you are playing.
You are starting out so play tight, play in position, and bet when you think you have the best hand. 3 X the big blind pre-flop and bet the pot on the flop, 1/2 pot to full pot on the turn and again on the river depending on what you think he may call if he is behind.
There are a lot of people here that will help you out with advice but right now you have to learn some of this on your own. Read, read, read and if you don't understand ask some questions. If you are making an effort you will get help here.
Good luck and never stop reading. You will never know it all.
Note to forum - We need a sticky for begining players.
P.S. and this is probably most important. Don't post here about how your Aces got cracked by 65 off suit. We have heard it all before a million freaking times and nobody cares, I repeat, nobody cares. It happens so get on with your life and concentrate on making good decisions at the tables.
This is exactlty why alot of people that use the forum (myself included) stay away from getting advice here. I personally tend to agree with the comments being made about the posted hands, but really...... why so harsh?
Going back to BBC's thread, if I didn't feel I had an edge over most players, I wouldn't play the game. I'm just too competitive, and in poker, if you can't raise your play above the other players, you lose more than the game, you lose your money.
I think the bottom line is, the advice is given to push Rockwood up to the current level of each poster. If the goal was to push Rockwood up to the level of 'I lose my money more slowly than most', well, I think then, we are really just wasting everyone's time.
Do we need to be nice about it? Well, if you read the forum sticky, it clearly states that there is a big difference between, you are stupid and you made a stupid play. I don't need to spill a bunch of words, saying 'you'll do better next time'. Rockwood either takes the advice and uses it for improvement or he doesn't. I don't think we need to include links to FTD in each post, just to make sure he feels good about it.
When someone makes the effort of posting to help you out, the least you can do is respond with more than two liners. Engage in a dialogue and attempt to understand what the post is trying to say.
Currently, it's "Look, I lost with AK", someone responds with good advice and you respond with "k".
Because once upon a time, a guy called BBC Z showed up and didn't candy coat his answers. If you played a hand badly and post in an internet forum, you have to be able to accept someone telling you that. There aren't enough hours in my day or desire in my heart to be wishy-washy about not hurting feelings.
I totally agree with you....... if we were sitting across the felt from each other. The things is we aren't here are we?
From reading alot of other posts, its clear that many are frustrated in how it has gone downhill. Do you honestly think being rude is helping?
This isn't a personal attack, just responding to your message.
www.ftd.com
For the record, if you are defending your own comments.... I haven't found anything written by yourself that I have a problem with.
Maybe this was a little harsh, but I completely thought it was more likely a troll post than a legitimate one. The hands posted were virtually identical (with the exception of the lack of the enormous river bet in the first hand) But I digress...
As per Moose, BBC, etc. I completely agree that non-candy coated criticism should be 100% fine here. This isn't 2+2 and it's not like we're suggesting to the OP that YSSCKY.
Kudos to Dr. Tyore for posting a well thought out, if not extremely long dissertation on the hand. Read it. And more importantly understand the thought process as the hand progresses.
If you want criticism on a hand, or on your thought process of the hand, most people here will be glad to give you their impressions/opinions. Unfortunately the OP didn't say WHAT he was thinking at any point in the hand. It's a hand posted in a vacuum, with no reads on the players or reasons why he chose to check down a monster the entire way and then made an enormous bet that no-one in their right mind should have called given the ridiculously poor odds they were getting.
as for the Rockwood files... If Rockwood wants to post hands for open discussion at a beginner level, he needs to listen more and try to understand. From what I see on this site, there is tons of valuable info here so absorb all you can Rockwood!
.Make the best decisions you can EACH HAND and over a long period of time you will be a winning poker player...forget about past beats, just remember your money was in with the best of it.
...now to learn how to make good decisions...that's why I'm here
P.S All you guys have pics I can see, I added one on my profile but I can't see it....?
alorlilly