Is it possible?

Hello fellas,

Is it possible to become a winning Limit poker player consistently using for the most part your instincts?

To give an example, when people engage in discussion about the mathematical aspects of the game I am completely lost. Reading some of the posts on this forum actually make my head spin.

Almost 100% of my decisions (in life and at the poker table) are based on instincts. I feel that my strengths lie in the ability to gather information from watching my opponents play. I feel that I have am able to get a good read on my opponents and have no trouble at all determining who is a strong player and who is not.

Any and all input is greatly appreciated.

Nooner

Comments

  • what you say are instincts are really just complicated little programs running in your head. all based on math. you hone your instincts when you change the values in your equations. honest.

    but limit is for scared fish. so, no. it is a trick question because no one can ever win at limit anyway.
  • Assuming your "instincts" are good then yes.
    what you say are instincts are really just complicated little programs running in your head. all based on math.

    It's true. Maybe you're lazy at figuring the "exact" size of the pot, but as long as you understand the difference between small and big pots and how that affects your decisions... I'd guess most players ballpark it, and most likely know when they've got clear calls/raises/folds, and intuitively know when things are closer and it's in a little bit of a grey area. It's not a matter of knowing exactly what your exact EV is, it's a matter of knowing if you're making a profitable or unprofitable play, and of the options presented to you (call, raise or fold), which option to you is the MOST profitable (or least unprofitable). Doing the crazy EV math is for showoffs like ScottyZ, or more likely PokerStove. :)
  • Nooner81 wrote: »
    Is it possible to become a winning Limit poker player consistently using for the most part your instincts?
    The amount of money you make in poker is based on the gap between your skill level and your opponents' skill level. So IF most of the opponents you play with also don't have any poker math skills and are not as good in the psychological skills as you, it is POSSIBLE for you to beat the rake and win consistently.
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    what you say are instincts are really just complicated little programs running in your head. all based on math. you hone your instincts when you change the values in your equations. honest.

    That is correct. As Bill Chen points out, even if a player is not consciously using math, a model of the situation is implicit in his decisions, i.e., when he calls, raises or folds, he is articulating his belief that one action is better than another in a particular situation. Math is a particularly appropriate tool for making decisions based on information. Rejecting math as a tool for playing poker puts one's decision-making at the mercy of guesswork. Chen also states that playing mathematically is more accurate as far as incorporating "reads" than playing by "feel."

    Maximizing total money won in poker requires that a player maximize the expected value of his decisions. It helps a lot if you know how to make calculations, such as chip EV, $ EV, tracking the pot, pot odds, odds of winning, implied odds, reverse implied odds, M, Q, etc.
  • There have been some great responses in this thread, and a great OP.

    I won't add to what's already been said, except to emphasize that this is a really strong point:
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    what you say are instincts are really just complicated little programs running in your head.

    However, the rest of his post lost me completely.
  • I don't want to hijack this thread... it's a great thread. BUT I will say that I think that more damage can be done (and more profits can be gained) from a tilted player playing LHE than NLHE.

    There. I said it. And, maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen to other people's points of view. But I'm in a $25/$50 LHE game right now, and let me tell you: some players, they get beat out of a pot for $250, and they proceed to go CRAZY in LHE. Three-betting and capping any hand, calling down to the river with any pair, and burning through 2K in no time.

    I am aware that people can tilt in NLHE cash games too. But, LHE is so much more fast-paced than NLHE (esp. online, esp. shorthanded) that the tilted player has no recovery time. Just ram and jam, and if that doesn't work, call call call. In NLHE after a tiltable player has a beat put on him, he has so much more time to recover while some guy at one end of the table is staring at a guy at the other end of the table for five minutes asking questions like:

    "So, you like your hand, huh?"

    and

    "How MUCH do you like your hand?"

    and

    "What would you say if I told you that I have middle pair, and I'm thinking of calling..."

    and

    "If I fold will you show?"

    and

    "Man, at this price I kind of have to call don't I... but..." (he then proceeds to pretend to throw his cards into the muck, but doesn't, and then proceeds to stare at his opponent for five more minutes and repeat the above questions and statements.)

    In that space of time, the tilted player has got up from the table, walked around a bit, maybe bought some more chips, grabbed a coffee, and he hasn't missed a thing, except for a run at the low-limit no-limit hold'em players Academy Awards.

    In that same space of time, the tilted player at the $25/$50 LHE table has burned through 2K in haze of rage.
  • all_aces wrote: »
    However, the rest of his post lost me completely.
    are you kidding me? :)

    the big risk in NL is the guy on tilt burns off his stack to someone else before you can get to it. thankfully, he usually rebuys and gives you another chance. here fishy fishy...
  • There is a fine line between instincts and stupidity. I usually play with friends so I base the majoirty of my decisions on what my opponent has. I rarely try and think of whether I have my opponent beat, but I always try and determine the other player's hand.

    I know betting trends as well as how certain hands are played. I think basing your decisions upon instincts are not a bad idea if you have a hand and you know your opponent. If you do not know who you are playing with, then you better be a great bluffer or pick up a few hands.
  • In that same space of time, the tilted player at the $25/$50 LHE table has burned through 2K in haze of rage.

    Or if you're really lucky, he's luckboxed and bad beated everyone else at the table and put several others on tilt. Buckle your seatbelt though, LHE tilt wars can get crazy.

    One maniac has the potential to turn 4-5 bad players into 4-5 REALLY bad players. It's like they have a "well I'd fold for one bet 99% of the time, but against this guy I might as well cold call 2 or even 3 bet for spite".
  • Hey Greg (pkrfce9)

    Could you please send me an email? all_aces@pokerforum.ca

    For some reason I am unable to send PM's here, and I can't find your email address.

    Thanks!
  • :( <--- me preparing for private berating...

    email sent.
  • LOL not at all... I just want to quote you in CPP.

    Details sent. Sorry for the thread hijack (again).
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