$50/$100 LHE hand for discussion

Unknown

I originally posted this hand in the "ding ding ding" thread because I wasn't expecting any discussion. Much to my delight, some questions have been asked, so here is the hand. Questions to follow.

PokerStars Game #8063404117: Hold'em Limit ($50/$100) - 2007/01/22 - 01:09:31 (ET)
Table 'Sternberga' 10-max Seat #10 is the button
Seat 1: f.t.d. ($1979 in chips)
Seat 3: NYC99 ($3597.50 in chips)
Seat 4: DIAMOND789 ($2535 in chips)
Seat 5: maciste ($4088 in chips)
Seat 6: civicsib18c1 ($97 in chips)
Seat 7: maxmuller ($1738 in chips)
Seat 8: all aces ($2735 in chips)
Seat 9: dbth ($1047 in chips)
Seat 10: liberace ($2767 in chips)
f.t.d.: posts small blind $25
NYC99: posts big blind $50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to all aces [8s 8d]
DIAMOND789: raises $50 to $100
maciste: folds
civicsib18c1: calls $97 and is all-in
maxmuller: folds
all aces: calls $100
dbth: folds
liberace: calls $100
f.t.d.: folds
NYC99: calls $50
*** FLOP *** [8c 2d 7h]
NYC99: checks
DIAMOND789: bets $50
all aces: calls $50
liberace: raises $50 to $100
NYC99: folds
DIAMOND789: raises $50 to $150
all aces: calls $100
liberace: calls $50
*** TURN *** [8c 2d 7h] [7c]
DIAMOND789: bets $100
all aces: calls $100
liberace: raises $100 to $200
DIAMOND789: raises $100 to $300
all aces: calls $200
liberace: raises $100 to $400
Betting is capped
DIAMOND789: calls $100
all aces: calls $100
*** RIVER *** [8c 2d 7h 7c] [Ad]
DIAMOND789: checks
all aces: bets $100
liberace: calls $100
DIAMOND789: calls $100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
all aces: shows [8s 8d] (a full house, Eights full of Sevens)
liberace: mucks hand
DIAMOND789: mucks hand
all aces collected $1962 from side pot
civicsib18c1: mucks hand
all aces collected $507 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2472 Main pot $507. Side pot $1962. | Rake $3
Board [8c 2d 7h 7c Ad]
Seat 1: f.t.d. (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: NYC99 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: DIAMOND789 mucked [Kh Ks]
Seat 5: maciste folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: civicsib18c1 mucked [Ah 6c]
Seat 7: maxmuller folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: all aces showed [8s 8d] and won ($2469) with a full house, Eights full of Sevens
Seat 9: dbth folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: liberace (button) mucked [7s 6s]

Unknown

Moose then asked the following questions:

Interesting hand Devo. A few comments and questions.

1. For me personally, when I see someone cold calling bets in between two raisers, I am instantly suspicious of that person and start worrying about a set. Obviously these two guys weren't thinking at all. Obviously no reason to get in the raising war at all either.

On such a draw-heavy board, I was trying to represent that I was the one on a draw... I certainly played it as such. With the heavy betting, I figured they both had made hands, but it occurred to me that one of them could be on a draw nonetheless.

2. What did you put these guys on by the turn? Any thoughts about quad 7s?

Yep... quad sevens popped into my mind. But so did pocket aces, kings, queens, deuces, A7, x7, and straight and flush draws. I probably should have raised the turn because I had no reason to believe that liberace would raise for me except for a feeling... the table was wild, lots of raises on the turn, the river... big game for sure. Still, I probably should have raised the turn myself. It worked out nicely though.

3. Any thoughts that with liberace capping the turn, that diamond might be going for a c/r on the river with AA?

Yes. But I was also concerned that liberace would check behind when that flush closed on the river, so I think I had to bet. If I was raised by either player I was just calling.

4. If liberace raises you on the river and/or diamond c/r's do you reraise or call?

I was prepared to call any number of bets back to me after I bet the river if I was raised, but I wasn't re-raising.

Another question. Change the 8 on the flop to a 5, so you flop the overpair. How far do you go with this hand? Do you fold when it is two bets cold back to you on the flop?

If the 8 was a 5, NYC checks, diamond bets, I raise, liberace either:

a) calls, and then NYC folds, diamond re-raises, I call one more bet and get away from the hand on the turn if it's not an 8 or a 6

b) re-raises, in which case NYC folds, diamond caps, and I fold the flop

moose

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sdflkgjsdfg

Unknown

Those extra letters are either there to make your post long enough to post, or they are referencing an old acronym. Which is it, and if it's an acronym, what does it stand for?

moose

I will make a new acronym.

Sloth Needs To Change The Settings To Allow For Shorter Posts.

SNTCTSTAFSP

SirWatts

I would just go ahead and jam this at every available oppurtunity. Your line might have worked out well this time against the specific hands they had but in general I think you're just losing value. It's not like raising the flop gives away the strength of your hand or something unless you're playing your draws/marginal hands way too passively.

ryanghall

SirWatts wrote: »

I would just go ahead and jam this at every available oppurtunity. Your line might have worked out well this time against the specific hands they had but in general I think you're just losing value. It's not like raising the flop gives away the strength of your hand or something unless you're playing your draws/marginal hands way too passively.

I agree with everything said here (but I don't play much limit)

Ryan

Whitehorse

SirWatts wrote: »

I would just go ahead and jam this at every available oppurtunity. Your line might have worked out well this time against the specific hands they had but in general I think you're just losing value. It's not like raising the flop gives away the strength of your hand or something unless you're playing your draws/marginal hands way too passively.

Do you think if he caps the flop, that they still cap the turn? Or did he extract maxium value by the way he played it? Curious..

It looks to me that AllAces MAY have cost himself $50 at the expense of building the pot by several hundred more?, I don't see the dispute as to how this was played.

I hope you higher limit guys continue this discussion.

Cheers.

SirWatts

Like I said you can't just look at results. It probably worked out better this time than just jamming away because he kept the guy with 76 in the hand. The actual hands they had this time is irrelevant though, in general I think his line is worse. Slowplaying in limit holdem is basically always wrong.

Whitehorse

Hmm... I didn't want to disagree with a guy like Sir Watts, obviously he's a nl and a trny nl expert....but in this limit hand, I disagree, I'm not being results orientated here as I always play it the way All Aces did. Why jam it to pick up an extra 2 sb, when a check can possibly pick up an extra 4 bb?

There is the outside chance an A or K may fall on the river filling a higher full house....but why not bait and extract with the full house?

Cheers.

specialK

SirWatts wrote: »

Slowplaying in limit holdem is basically always wrong.

enough said, also the truth

Unknown

The thread is resurrected!

Goddamn that was a big pot. So very very sweet.

Unknown

This one is interesting too I guess... I just played it. The game is typical shorthanded $50/$100, which means extremely aggressive.

PokerStars Game #8433859640: Hold'em Limit ($50/$100) - 2007/02/14 - 03:38:27 (ET)
Table 'Magaclite' 10-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: House1515200 ($1095.50 in chips)
Seat 2: AdultFilm ($5842.50 in chips)
Seat 3: all aces ($2541 in chips)
Seat 4: Quackers ($1297 in chips)
Seat 6: McSketch ($2391 in chips)
Seat 7: socutiesf ($2419 in chips)
Quackers: posts small blind $25
McSketch: posts big blind $50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to all aces [Jh Jc]
socutiesf: folds
House1515200: folds
AdultFilm: raises $50 to $100
all aces: raises $50 to $150
Quackers: folds
McSketch: folds
AdultFilm: calls $50
*** FLOP *** [3c 6h Kc]
AdultFilm: checks
all aces: bets $50
AdultFilm: calls $50
*** TURN *** [3c 6h Kc] [Kh]
AdultFilm: checks
all aces: bets $100
AdultFilm: raises $100 to $200
all aces: calls $100
*** RIVER *** [3c 6h Kc Kh] [7h]
AdultFilm: checks
all aces:

Check or bet?

moose

Depends on your read of the player. He tried to see if you have nothing on the turn and he now knows you are not going away. What is his go to showdown percentage? Would he still call with a worse hand? Anything over 40% and I still bet here. Unlikely he was semi-bluffing a flush draw because he didn't bet the river.

Unknown

I bet, he called, and he had Tc 6c. I dragged the pot, beating his missed flush draw and two pair, kings and sixes.

SirWatts

Yeah, seems like an easy value bet.

ScoobyD

I'm very inclined to think you're ahead on the turn if the player's aggressive. The 2nd K falling would make me feel better about my hand here. Aggressive players probably also figure you don't have a king either and could be CR'ing any pair hoping to fold out UI overcards. It's also possible that the person is CR bluffing the turn with a heart flush draw.

As far as the river, the only thing that deters me from betting is the 3rd heart if we think a flush draw might CR bluff the turn, although in general they will lead the river fearing you'd check behind if they tried to CR (since it looks likely that you don't hold a K). I think I'd be inclined to value bet here given your opponent checked. First to act I'd probably check-call.

Unknown

ScoobyD wrote: »

As far as the river, the only thing that deters me from betting is the 3rd heart if we think a flush draw might CR bluff the turn, although in general they will lead the river fearing you'd check behind if they tried to CR (since it looks likely that you don't hold a K). I think I'd be inclined to value bet here given your opponent checked. First to act I'd probably check-call.

Yep... if my opponent had check-called the turn I might have checked behind on the river, fearing a river check-raise. I might not have, though... tough to say. But players will rarely go for a check-raise twice in a row (the first one usually prevents the second one from happening) so after he checks the river I'm pretty sure I'm good.

Unknown

Also, I'll try to play some $50/$100 later tonight and hopefully something else will come up for discussion. Maybe I'll actually post a hand that I lose.

specialK

check raise the turn, then he checks the river... i definately put him on a 6 here, the turn make him think he has the best hand... seems like an easy spot to value bet the river with your JJ

Unknown

That's pretty much it alright!