SET Discussion
Just so we can keep this discussion out of the Game 10 post because you make some very valid points Aimee and I think there is room for discussion so I have create it’s own thread.
OK first off the only people that are paying into the final game each week are the winners for the week not each individual player. An amount from each week goes to the final game but that amount is taken from the winners not from each player.
Now to encourage a constant number of players we need a system that rewards player attendance. The current one does that. It encourages players to play often and well. There is currently no player who has showed up every week and not in the top 16.
Last season (and season two as well). We would average about 12-14 players a game, with some games just barely having enough people for a game, but then for the final game we suddenly have 20 players, that is unfair to the players that come regularly and keep the league alive, also players could do a “hit and run” where they money in the first four games and don’t show up until the TOC. Basically winning enough and playing enough to qualify for the final game.
The point of the league is to have a regular weekly game and to do that you need a consistent number of players.
Players that have played well the first few games return to ensure they make the top 16 and protect their points, players that have not done so well want to keep playing so they can make the top 16. So this system encourages players to keep coming out and playing.
If any one has any ideas on a system to get a consistent number of players each week and it make it fair to every one (players that only come to a few game and players that come to all) then please share as the league is for everyone and everyone’s ideas are welcomed.
OK first off the only people that are paying into the final game each week are the winners for the week not each individual player. An amount from each week goes to the final game but that amount is taken from the winners not from each player.
Now to encourage a constant number of players we need a system that rewards player attendance. The current one does that. It encourages players to play often and well. There is currently no player who has showed up every week and not in the top 16.
Last season (and season two as well). We would average about 12-14 players a game, with some games just barely having enough people for a game, but then for the final game we suddenly have 20 players, that is unfair to the players that come regularly and keep the league alive, also players could do a “hit and run” where they money in the first four games and don’t show up until the TOC. Basically winning enough and playing enough to qualify for the final game.
The point of the league is to have a regular weekly game and to do that you need a consistent number of players.
Players that have played well the first few games return to ensure they make the top 16 and protect their points, players that have not done so well want to keep playing so they can make the top 16. So this system encourages players to keep coming out and playing.
If any one has any ideas on a system to get a consistent number of players each week and it make it fair to every one (players that only come to a few game and players that come to all) then please share as the league is for everyone and everyone’s ideas are welcomed.
AcidJoesHoe wrote: »
it still is not right for those of us who pay every week or the four weeks we do play or however many we play to have to finish in the top. So what I am paying for the top 16 people to play.
Not right. you already have the four game rule . So others can't come in and steal the end of season.. And yes granted I got lucky, being in the top 16. But there are others who have played just as much or more then I have and are not in the top 16.
It just does not seem fair that Everyone pays into something and then are told they have not only play four or more regular games. But also have to be in the top 16 to play in the season ending. Like I said before it is not my league. So I have to deal with it, doesnt mean I can not what I feel or think. I think it was better when you did it the old way. But, I am figuring that some people got pissed when at the last final they busted out before some of us who had not placed in the money and there for the changes. If not then oh well. If so that is poker, and in all fairness anyone who plays the four games should be allowed to pay to play in the season ending.
Just my two cents, about it and how I feel. I dont mean to cause problems ... But it has been bugging me for a while now. now I am done with it...
Comments
Also, I want to remind everyone that this is not MY league, it's OUR league. The only thing I want to ensure is that it improves over time and does NOT become extinct or have it slowly erode into oblivion. I welcome change whole hearteningly, and I am prepared to do what the members wish to change with the upcoming season.
Aimee, I completely understand your points, completely valid. And I will entertain any thoughts you have on improving the layout for Season 5 and subsequent seasons. Keep in mind though that any member can request a change of format and that it will be discussed and approved by all members.
The point system is used to 1) award players who do well 2) earn bonus chips for the final game and most importantly imho 3) to allow every player a system to measure their own improvements with. Personally, I think it works well, but I'm only one member, and yea, abit biased. But like I said, members will decide.
I encourage this discussion and wecome all members to voice their opinions.
Ching. Hill is evolving. I think for the better. I had some questions/ideas for structure changes. I had some wild ideas (that were shot down, but that’s ok). And some change idea’s I was against. In the end, the league changes have resulted in more players showing up. This was the intent of the changes, so everyone must agree the changes have been successful.
At no point has there been any sinister plan to finely craft and tune the rules to create an atmosphere of exclusivity, or create an unfair advantage. All the ideas put forward, and changes implemented where sincerely put in to make Ching Hill, better, stronger, and more dynamic.
Ok, politically correct BS is over, prepare yourself for some harsh comments.
Poker is not about being fair. If everyone was naturally “fair” we wouldn’t need rules. Poker is about creating an equal playing field, where each player has an equal opportunity of coming out on top.
The tournament formerly known as the TOC was about (correct me if I’m wrong) one last big payday tournament. If you detached the TOC from the league. It’s simply a $120 entry freeze out tournament. Some paid the entry on the installment plan, and some paid via deposit with balance due at game time. The minimum regular league game rule was already in place, and as far as I’m concerned unnecessary, but it nicely tided the TOC to the regular league games.
The SET is easier to qualify for in terms of attendance. My understanding of the top 16 cutoff is to make it worth something. To make it tided into league performance. Don’t view it as one game that you have to qualify for to play. Look at it as a 12 games series, in which the top 16 make it to the playoffs.
If you come out every game, try your best, but still don’t make the playoffs… (you know what I’m going to write next, don’t make me have to spell it out)
Each and every time out, someone has to be the chump, someone has to be the bubbleboy. It hurts, and it’s sad, but it’s part of the game. There can be no winner without losers.
I strongly believe we have a very competive league, full of strong multi-talented players. Not qualifying has nothing to do with fairness, it just means you were outperformed. Absorbed it, learn from it, make adjustments, and comeback a stronger player next season.
I think this has been a great season, and the top 16 thing has made it very competitive (which in my mind, is great for the league). It also encourages regular attendance which makes each weekly game bigger (also good for the league). I'm a big proponent of "if it 'aint broke, don't fix it" and I don't think the league is broke.
First (and most important in my books): No matter how you do the SET or whatever UPDATE THE STICKY with the rules so everyone is on the same page. That will eliminate any problems with I don't know or I wasn't aware. If you don't like/agree then don't play. These rules should also be printed out and available to anyone during the regular games. Some members aren't regular forum members and as such should have access to them.
Second: it isn't practical for me living approximately an hour away to get out every week. Missed weeks due to work, weather other commitments etc are going to happen. You already reward attendance with higher chip counts due to points etc. Restricting it to the top 16 I think in the long run will not increase attendance nor will it add to the league in my opinion. I believe it will end up having a negative effect.
Third: If you are going to make it top 16, then get rid of the 4 game rule, it is unnecessary in my opinion. It will be absolutely impossible to make it into the top 16 and not play at least 4 games. If someone plays 3 games wins all 3 and makes it into the top 16 so be it. They deserve to play.
Lastly: Under the old rules the final tournament was like an installment plan. If you wanted to play you had to make up the difference. If you chose not to play then that's fine. If you are going to make it top 16 then I don't think any money should come out of the prize pool each week. I don't think it will end up encouraging the weaker players to come out each week and leads back to my second point that I think it will end up negatively effecting the league.
Just my 2 cents worth from someone not presently in the top 16 but will be unless you are going to sleep with your chips under your pillow.
OK How do you figure you come up with the money???? It is not only the winners money. It is everyones money. Anyone who plays in a night is adding money to the pot. If this is not so.. then i must really be confused.
I don't have a problem with the point structure. My problem is with the season ending game.. It is possible for a person to show up to every game and not place in the top 16. So this person or person should not be able to have a shot at winner the season ending because of not finishing in the money at some point in time.. I understand why you would not want a railroader coming in, But i think the four game ruling should be takin out of this if only the top 16 will play in the final. You do not need that ruling anymore.. And So be it if someone only comes out three times and wins and gets enough points to make it to the top 16..
Not everyone has great suck out odds, or luck, or the same amount of skill, to always finish closer to the top. So that comment is very offensive to me at least..
This is very true, that is not a problem. What I am saying is the keep down to the Top 16 players, for those of us who come out and do not do as well every time. To be unable to play in the final seems like a kick in the ass. IF I am going to play in a league, and pay 50 bucks a week and then at the final be told oops sorry about you luck you dont qualify for the final. Then why would I, keep coming back. My way of thinking is, if i pay to play, and play the required four games, I should at least have the option of playing in the season ending games.
I do agree this is a very competive league. And yes the players are multi-talented. Yes you learn from it and make adjustments, and maybe come back a stronger player. But, As I said before, I am not going to spend 50 bucks every week. And add to the season ending pot, to be told you can not play in the final. If that is the case, I would rather go to a casino, and give them my money.
I agree with this statement very much, Not all of us have jobs where we work Monday to Friday, and 9 to 5.
Anyways, I didnt want to start a whole thing about this, I just wanted to have my say cause it was bothering me and be done with it. Everyone has had very good posts about this.. It is just the way I feel. And I guess it boils down to, Do I want to play, next season or do I decide not to. Who knows I may even be bumped out of the top 16, By the end of this season. It is a choice I will have to make.
P.S if there is spelling mistakes deal with it... cause on a good day I can not type well ...
I, for one, am glad you said something Aimee. Even though we might disagree, you've been a great addition to the league, and I wouldn't want you to feel like you couldn't, or shouldn't, speak your mind about league stuff.
I'm not sure what the right answer here is. Last season I didn't think it worked out well, because we had several weeks where we almost didn't have a game because of not enough people, and then the TOC was very big, and quite a few players just put in the 4-game minimum so they could play the "big game". It just seemed unfair to those of us that attend regularly to keep the league going. But I also see your point about people who can't make each and every game, but are still "regulars".
Would it make a difference if the buy-in for the SET wasn't connected to the weekly games at all? i.e. Only top 16 get to play in the SET, but no juice is taken each week....the buy-in for the SET could be higher (like $100) still making it a big payday for the money finishers....but no one has to contribute to a game they don't play in.
Oh...and I also think the 4 week minimum is kind of redundant if only the top 16 play in the SET.
We could always go back to the old way for next season, but instead of having to play at least 4 games, maybe up that to 6 or 8.
Just my 1 cent.
Simple, the amount of money everyone put in is the same amount ($50).
Once the money has been put into the pot the money is "no longer yours" but is "the winners" it's just that "the winners" have not be determined.
Then when all the players have arrived an amount is taken out from the total prize pool ("the winners money") the amount is the same ($100) but the percentage take out varies.
For example if 20 players showed up the total prize pool would be $1000 and $100 would be taken out so the winners are paying 10% for the final game. If only 10 players showed up the total prize pool would be $500 and $100 would be taken out so the winners are paying 20% into the total prize pool.
So the only people paying a certain amount is "the winners" but the amount they pay varies in relation to the total prize pool. Sometimes the percentage is higher some times it is lower.
Now if we truly want a fair system then we would say only people that have won money during the season can come to the SET because that is their money in the final game. (But again some one could say that is unfair because they came to 80% of the games played well but kept bubbling where one player came to 4 games chumped in 3 of them and then made 3rd once.)
Now if we didn't take any money out for the final game and had a final game where the top 16 only can play and then buy-in there is no incentive for players lower in the top 16 to come. (Would any want to buy into a game where one player would have a 20% larger stack then you but you both paid the same amount to play?)
Now if people believe the current set up for the SET and season is unfair and needs changed then please share your ideas on how to make it better and fair for everyone (people that come to every game and people that only come to 4 games), plus also encourages people to show up regularly and to play their best.
No matter what gets suggested there will always be something that is “unfair” to some one.
I think the league was fine the way it was before. Maybe just a few more games needed to played before anyone could play in the season ending. If it was 10 person takin out that is fine too. instead of 100 each time.. There are alot of good players who come out. who I dont think will come out after this season.. That is just the feeling I am getting ...
So be it if it stays the way it is.. Like I said before, I am just spittin out my beef with it... I have yet to really here from the league adminstrator as to what he thinks on this issue.. An d anyone else, I am not scared to voice my opion, I am sure there are others who want to but wont...
I take SERIOUS offense to this statement. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES have I EVER allowed any person to feel this way, and if I have, for God's Sake let me know now! And if anyone has felt this way, let me know so that I can take IMMEDIATE and DECISIVE action against those who restrict another members concerns or opinions.
Technically, it isn't. Like paying for a movie before you get to watch it. The buyin is your fee to participate in the game.
The buyin to each game is paid up front, and held in trust for the winners of the night, less the contribution to the final SET game. This is where I think your greatest issue lies, the contribution. However, when you arrive and pay for the game upfront, that money now belongs to the winners yet to be decided. The contribution is taken FROM THE WINNERS PAYOUT, and NOT from YOUR pocket. This was changed from previous seasons where the contribution was made from EACH player's buyin...now it's from the payout pot.
Correct me if I'm wrong here in my assumption that it is THIS money that is in dispute.
As far as the four game minimum, it will be eliminated from the conditions effective next season. Like I said, to make changes to THIS season so late in the game is unethical and unprofessional in my opinion.
Maybe it was okay, but a few nights I was very worried if we would have enough players to even hold a game let alone to fill one table. Only after players started to realize that they needed one or two more games late in the season did we start filling up. It was nerve wrecking and frankly, didn't reward those who came out weekly fairly. This IS a LEAGUE afterall, with members who drive it, and NOT a casino SnG.
When I first contrived of this league, the first thing I wanted to ensure was that it was able to grow, both in membership as well as professionalism. Change is necessary in order for this growth to happen, it's the only way the league will improve. Some changes are not going to be liked by all members, but as a whole, I believe the league will benefit. Personally, I like the way the league is shaping up, and I'm very happy with the quality of game as well as the increased membership we have had recently.
Well, I truly hope we can overcome this issue, like all others in the past. I do not like the thought of upsetting someone to the point where they refuse to participate in the league purely for a small disagreement over the rules and conditions (which btw, I take SOLE responsibility for not having changed the rules sticky yet, so if thats' a real issue, bitch at me through a PM. I apologize for not getting it done sooner).
Like I said at the top of this post, ANYONE, AND I MEAN ANYONE who doesn't feel like their opinions are being addressed fairly and openly should discuss this with me privately, and I WILL take action necessary. Everyone's opinion, views and concerns are valid and WILL be addressed. But it will be done so to improve the League as a whole. This will most likely mean someone will disagree with one or two things, and if that's all it's going to take for someone to halt their participation, then its OUR loss as a whole. I for one would hate for it to come to that though.
In closing, I just want to say one final statement.
I'm doing the very best I can, but I can only do what's right with everyone's help. I am NOT a professional tournament director...I learn something new every single week we play...BUT I AM willing to learn more and improve as I go along. I don't work full time for a casino as an organizer, nor have I played this game long enough to fully understand all the nuiances with organizing and making it happen. I rely on the combined knowledge, skills, views, and opinions from everyone to make it better and of the highest possible caliber of play we can make it. And when necessary, I will seek out the opinions of those MUCH more knowledgeable about these things.
My original goal remains the same as it has always been...to make this League the best it can be, and to keep improving it.
Aimee: I understand what you are trying to say and to a certain extent I agree with you but as a "league" there needs to be something to play for at the end of the season otherwise we're just getting together for a friendly game of poker. So if this is supposed to be a league then a ranking system is needed to setup the finale. From what I have seen so far it isn't that tough to make it to the top 16 if you show up consistantly and play a decent game. Like I said earlier I don't know what it was like before and have no idea how the final game was decided on but if there is no mechanism for rating players then the final game becomes a game just like any other with anyone who wants to show up playing.
Just my 2 cents...
Garry
I'm not sure that's a fair statement Aimee. Just because people disagree, doesn't mean that anyone's opinion isn't valid. Obviously I know Chris pretty well, and I know he is not meaning to diminish anyone's thoughts....he just has very strong opinions on this subject, (as do you) and you've both expressed them (at length). But ultimately they are both just opinions, neither is right nor wrong.
I've been a bit wishy washy - on one hand, I think that things this season have worked out really well. There's a higher sense of competition, and the final game will be representative of the players who came often and played well. On the other hand - I like you, and like having you at the games, and hate to think that you don't feel heard on this issue. Ultimately, I think I have to go with what I think is best for the league, and a competitive structure that rewards consistent attendance and performance has to win out for me.
Oh, and AJ....I think you rock as a TD. Except for the fact that your house is rigged.
It is about, not being able to play in the season ending game.. I know there has to be winners and losers.. What I am saying is, IF a person comes out to every game or even to the four they or more they have to play.. Why bother having that in there if only the top 16 people will be playing in the final..
If a person comes out to four or more games and does not at least finish in the money twice, they will not have enough points to play in the final.
I had not realized at the beginning what the changes where, Until, I started reading them one day. and Everyone talking about the top 16 being able to play the season ending game..
IN NO WAY, DID I want to offend anyone. I just wanted to get this off my chest.. In no way, did I want to do this..
NOw as for, THe money , If i dont play and dont pay, then I dont care what you do with it. But when i pay 50 bucks every week .. HEll yes I want to know what happens to it. IF you are still thinking it is not are money or whatever. I think you need to open your minds up . IF none of us paid any money there would be not pots to win. I have a stake in this. What is the league season 12 weeks. so 600 of my dollars, go into this league if i come out and play all 12 weeks.. OK maybe a little less due to missed games.
That is alot of money to have invested, and be told you can not play in the final season ending game, because you did not make the final..
All I wanted was to understand how the league was running this year. I could not understand why, Changes like this whould have been made. My fault for not paying attention to it. Like I said before, i said my peace now ill leave it alone. But when everyone attacks me I have to defend myself. Specially when it only seemed as one person was really attacking me on this subject.
Sorry but the is how I feel. I mean no disrespect or to offend anyone...
AJ you do a great job, never did i say anywhere that you didnt..